[00:00:00] Thomas: Welcome to what the three, the [00:00:05] podcast that brings founders from zero to one today. We’re having, Alex [00:00:10] Puig, with us, Liam, maybe you want to introduce Alex properly.
[00:00:13] Liam: Yeah. Looking forward to [00:00:15] it, Alex. It’s great to have you here. For anyone who’s, Not met Alex before, [00:00:20] Alex is the founder of Context Protocol, co founder of Data Ventures, CTO, was the [00:00:25] CTO of Kalem Labs, started two Venture Studios.
[00:00:28] Liam: He’s known as a public figure in the Spanish blockchain [00:00:30] space and active in the space since early 2013. He founded Context Protocol and it [00:00:35] revolutionizes data storage and structure. Alex has a long background in emerging technology and brings [00:00:40] valuable insights to the industry. We are very lucky to have you, Alex.
[00:00:43] Liam: Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you [00:00:45] a lot for having me. No, you’re welcome. And I say, just saying before the podcast started, I’m very [00:00:50] jealous. You’re my favorite city in the world in Barcelona. I love the Catalonia sort of space. [00:00:55] So saying that, like being in Spain, [00:01:00] how did you get into the industry?
[00:01:02] Liam: And has it been different, sort [00:01:05] of being in other Western countries? I know sort of Portugal is deemed as kind of what the sort of. [00:01:10] One of the hubs of, crypto for a lot of people. And obviously that’s just [00:01:15] right next door to you.
[00:01:16] Alex: So, I think like Barcelona, [00:01:20] it’s an amazing city to live. That’s it.
[00:01:23] Alex: So [00:01:25] business wise, I would not recommend it. It’s not the place to be. But then if you like good food [00:01:30] and good wine, definitely it’s a place. It’s a place to be. I started in [00:01:35] technology. Like I started coding at 16. So I’ve been coding forever. [00:01:40] I think. Always like better conferences like better [00:01:45] startups everywhere else like not just here So even like if you think about being [00:01:50] entrepreneur tax wise, it’s not the perfect like with everything It’s not the perfect place [00:01:55] to start a company But but it’s as I say, like I I don’t I don’t even live in barcelona I [00:02:00] live like half an hour south of barcelona small village by the city so I can focus on work [00:02:05] and do the things That I need to do And then I don’t get distracted by the noise, probably like noise.
[00:02:09] Alex: [00:02:10] It’s like one of the worst things ever today, I think.
[00:02:14] Liam: So what have you, what do you [00:02:15] feel you’ve had to do to sort of stay at the forefront? With that, you’re saying you may be not in the [00:02:20] most ideal place. One of the things that people do, obviously coming from say like trad [00:02:25] fi and more like web two industries, the sort of the freedom, the kind of, [00:02:30] digital nomad aspects of blockchain, I think makes it easier to be in the space.
[00:02:34] Liam: But what are some of the challenges [00:02:35] you’ve had? From like 2013 and has it got easier?
[00:02:39] Alex: No, it [00:02:40] never goes easy. And the thing is like, uh This is like a socialist country, Spain [00:02:45] basically means that, the state usually wants to help you. And that’s the [00:02:50] most scary thing that can happen to you. Whenever like somebody, some politician company is like, we’re going to help you.[00:02:55]
[00:02:55] Alex: Every time that they help us, they add regulation. So they have so many really silly [00:03:00] regulations here that don’t help at all. We don’t, we, we cannot have like things like stock options [00:03:05] or fandom shares. So there’s an exit tax that’s really crazy. So [00:03:10] if basically, even if you succeed, then going out of the country, it’s the [00:03:15] tax you have to pay, it’s at least a few million, just like to move your company.
[00:03:18] Alex: And it’s the usual when you do [00:03:20] an MNA. So that’s crazy. And besides that, even like getting funded. [00:03:25] It’s not the best place. Once again, I [00:03:30] would say it’s small. Remember, like I spoke with a lot of people about that, but [00:03:35] usually I have an idea, just go to investors, like, okay, give me, give me 100K and I’ll give [00:03:40] you back 1 billion.
[00:03:41] Alex: So basically in Spain, they say, okay, well, we’re going to give you 1K, not [00:03:45] 100K, we’re going to give you 1K with really this bad valuation. So let’s see [00:03:50] what happens. If you do exactly the same thing in the States, it’s like, okay, If I [00:03:55] give you 100K, you’re going to give me 1 million. Then I give you 1 million and give me back, [00:04:00] 100 million.
[00:04:01] Alex: It’s like, so that’s the thing. And [00:04:05] second thing, like, it’s not really a good country for second opportunities. [00:04:10] And things like, if you go to the States, you go to Asia, there are many places that the background, okay. You [00:04:15] started a few things, you failed, of course. And then you wait, you, you know, you did it again.
[00:04:19] Alex: [00:04:20] That’s something amazing. It’s like every, everyone’s in school and he’s like, oh, you feel maybe you’re not that [00:04:25] good. Yeah. So, this kind of thing is like,
[00:04:29] Liam: [00:04:30] so
[00:04:30] Alex: with
[00:04:31] Liam: that in mind, having like, started several venture studios [00:04:35] yourself, you talking about sort of this exit tax kind of feels like you’re suggesting you’re almost kind of trapped there [00:04:40] to a degree, even though you like the lifestyle from a business perspective, if you could, if you were to start again, [00:04:45] where would you start?
[00:04:47] Alex: That’s a good question because like, that’s something I’ve been [00:04:50] thinking for a long, I’ve got, I have kids, so it’s not that I can really, Choose that [00:04:55] much, as a complicated, situation, [00:05:00] but then
[00:05:00] Liam: take all of the current situation out. We’ve been jumping, [00:05:05] we’re kind of going to go into sort of later on.
[00:05:06] Liam: We’ve got our startup desert essentials, but if you were just plump [00:05:10] back now, you’re 18 years old, you’re about to do a startup, but you can choose [00:05:15] any country in the world.
[00:05:16] Alex: Probably right now I would go to Asia somewhere [00:05:20] like probably Korea or Singapore. I think right now Singapore is the best place [00:05:25] to start a business at the moment because they have like the full good balance [00:05:30] between investment, regulation, so that’s a good place to [00:05:35] be.
[00:05:36] Alex: Probably Asia. Not, not even the States. I don’t like the States anymore. They don’t [00:05:40] feel safe too much. So probably Asia. Yeah.
[00:05:44] Liam: Is that [00:05:45] even with, so my take on Singapore, I was very bullish on, Singapore’s kind of adoption of [00:05:50] crypto regulations, but the more I read into them, the more I feel like they’re moving more towards like [00:05:55] that very like centralized controlling CBDC aspects of it.
[00:05:59] Liam: [00:06:00] It’s all regulated stable coins. And obviously I’m not saying that everything needs to be the wild [00:06:05] west, But is there not a worry about that part in sort of Singapore and some of the Asian [00:06:10] countries that are becoming more, we’re saying progressive, but I’ve got a slight [00:06:15] worry about that.
[00:06:16] Alex: Me too, but that’s happening everywhere.
[00:06:18] Alex: Like basically we are in Europe. When [00:06:20] it started with, I started in blockchain in 2013, meaning [00:06:25] I had to go to the Spanish regulator, Central Bank of Spain or Central Bank of Europe to speak about [00:06:30] blockchain at that time. And then hearing their ideas on CBBC is like from the beginning, [00:06:35] but then. For me, for business, like money needs to [00:06:40] have stability.
[00:06:41] Alex: So having some sort of regulation, sometimes it can help. Like right now [00:06:45] we’ll have Mika in Euro and even it’s not perfect. It’s far from perfect or from [00:06:50] perfect. Oh, wait, at least whenever, like I’m launching a, I’m launching a project right now, so I know. [00:06:55] What’s the framework that I need to go by? And that’s a lot because like [00:07:00] starting any company it’s there’s so many uncertainties that at least Being [00:07:05] like having this idea that okay They are not gonna like send me to jail tomorrow I haven’t seen with a lot of [00:07:10] founders from the states that they want to come to live to to to europe just for that
[00:07:14] Liam: No, I [00:07:15] was about to say the exact same thing.
[00:07:15] Liam: A lot of people, I find it hilarious almost when I’m talking to [00:07:20] people in the US and they’re saying how far ahead the EU is with regulations and [00:07:25] I’m thinking, well, I, I just, I downloaded the new strike app because you can [00:07:30] finally get strike in the UK. I had to give them my passport before I could even look to see [00:07:35] whether I wanted to use the app and use a third party KYC provider that I couldn’t [00:07:40] verify was actually safe.
[00:07:42] Liam: Which after the evolve stuff of the day wasn’t great, then I had to [00:07:45] ask, answer eight really difficult questions, which I don’t have to answer [00:07:50] on reserve banking. When I’m opening a bank account and fractional reserve banking. No, [00:07:55] that’s not, we’re not getting those questions, but really difficult regulatory questions, and there was about eight of them.[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Liam: Then after that, once you finally done with it all and you pass the test, they say, okay, come back tomorrow and [00:08:05] we’ll let you into the app. And that’s UK regulations for you. And people in the US are like, yeah, we’d love that because [00:08:10] of exactly what you said. At least you know what you’re doing. At least you’re, you have a set [00:08:15] of guidelines you can follow.
[00:08:16] Liam: The US, they have no guidelines and it’s just [00:08:20] enforcement by regulation by enforcement. Well, they
[00:08:23] Alex: have guidelines, but [00:08:25] they just don’t tell you. It’s like,
[00:08:27] Thomas: yeah, this is like that, like the IRS, right? It’s like, [00:08:30] we’re not going to tell you how much money you need to pay, but if you have it wrong, we’ll go after you.
[00:08:34] Alex: [00:08:35] And it’s funny because like, I think like. Everybody complains about China, but like most of the governments, [00:08:40] they want to be like China.
[00:08:43] Liam: Oh, there was a very [00:08:45] interesting, we shouldn’t really be, well, we should because it’s Krypton rolls. If anyone listening [00:08:50] hasn’t listened to the Bankless podcast from this week that had Vitalik on it, I [00:08:55] highly recommend it.
[00:08:56] Liam: They were talking about the efficiencies of, oh actually no, don’t watch it. [00:09:00] Go to cryptoslate. com and read my article about it because I wrote about it. About the efficiencies of [00:09:05] authoritarian governments and how the internet is actually pushing countries [00:09:10] towards that. because it’s more efficient and how blockchain could save democracy.
[00:09:16] Liam: [00:09:15] Because without it, we kind of, it’s just a natural evolution [00:09:20] that liberalism and democracy is kind of going away because it’s more efficient to be authoritarian. [00:09:25] So it was really fascinating to hear Vitalik’s takes on that.
[00:09:27] Alex: I’m not sure if it’s more efficient. The only thing is [00:09:30] like probably democracy, it’s over rigid.
[00:09:32] Alex: And you guys know a little bit about that [00:09:35] in UK. I mean, it’s like getting really hard decisions. Really, [00:09:40] really hard decision. He’s like, okay, I have like this to do. I need to, I have this operation, so I [00:09:45] have to go through the brain. And then instead of like, going to the experts to see like, what’s the best [00:09:50] way to get, to get into the brain to, to do some surgery in your brain.
[00:09:54] Alex: I just ask [00:09:55] everyone, it’s like, guys, people, what do you think? And like, [00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Liam: I mean, I could, I could diverse this. I find it really fascinating talking about like, With elections, you [00:10:05] spend a lot of time trying to raise money rather than actually governing. Yeah. And the difference between, and it was like kind of scary [00:10:10] to listen to it going, yeah, there is some logic to this, like the argument for authoritarianism, but then [00:10:15] obviously the downside is a big downside.
[00:10:17] Alex: Yeah, I was in China [00:10:20] last week and I was so surprised, like, for example, you go to Shanghai, And it’s an [00:10:25] amazing city. It feels like civilization should be at some point. And one of the things like they [00:10:30] decided that, we needed electrical cars. So basically all of the cars in Shanghai are [00:10:35] electrical vehicles.
[00:10:36] Alex: All of them. It’s, it’s, you don’t, you don’t [00:10:40] get it until you’re just there. And you are in a city with 20 something million people.
[00:10:44] Thomas: Yeah.
[00:10:44] Alex: And [00:10:45] the silence.
[00:10:46] Liam: Yeah, I’ve seen the videos on, on that. Exactly. Well, [00:10:50] let’s jump into the next part. I mean, we’ve kind of touched on it already, but just a little bit more in terms of, How has [00:10:55] your experience with, venture studios and tech building [00:11:00] changed since 2013?
[00:11:02] Liam: So the last 10 years, what’s the biggest change that [00:11:05] you’ve noticed?
[00:11:05] Alex: But, but, but don’t get me wrong with all of them. I mean, [00:11:10] I don’t understand the concept of expert in anything. Things change so far. [00:11:15] Like I’ve been building startups for the last 20 years. So my first startup was in 2008, [00:11:20] I think, nothing that I was doing back then.
[00:11:22] Alex: I could do it right now. Everything has changed so fast. [00:11:25] So every time you start a company, you need to like be humble [00:11:30] enough to understand that, you know, nothing, and you need to, you need to start from scratch.
[00:11:33] Thomas: So, so how do you keep up? Because [00:11:35] I think that a lot of people that, you know, are in, let’s say specifically in the Spanish blockchain [00:11:40] space, they, I think, look at you.
[00:11:41] Thomas: They’re like, Oh yeah, Alex. Yeah. If you don’t know Alex, you don’t know anything about blockchain kind of [00:11:45] thing. Yeah. So, so how do you keep up to understand, to make sure [00:11:50] that, you know, you’re, you’re staying at least in the right lane because there’s so much technology coming [00:11:55] out. And, and I think that’s different than, let’s say 10 years ago, but 10 years ago, [00:12:00] it was more a niche obscure industry where now it’s so widespread.
[00:12:04] Thomas: Right?
[00:12:04] Alex: [00:12:05] So the only way to keep up with that is like fuck experts. [00:12:10]
[00:12:10] Thomas: I mean, What does that mean in your, in your brain? Because I’ve
[00:12:14] Alex: seen, I’ve seen a lot [00:12:15] of people like talking about shit, talking about startups, talking about technology. And I’m just, I’m [00:12:20] just building, I wake up every day at 5am and try to build something and just do it.
[00:12:24] Alex: I code it. [00:12:25]
[00:12:25] Thomas: Yeah.
[00:12:26] Alex: Then I just keep attaching that I need things and then things change. And so I [00:12:30] have to read documentation and I speak a lot with chat GPT. It’s my best friend right now, but, [00:12:35] but
[00:12:37] Thomas: you’re lovely. And then
[00:12:39] Alex: you [00:12:40] have to be stupid. I mean, usually like smart people. [00:12:45] Every time, like, in my life, every time that there was a problem and they ask smart people, smart people [00:12:50] always, like, answer, No, that cannot be done.
[00:12:51] Alex: It’s impossible. It’s gonna be too expensive, whatever. And I [00:12:55] was the only stupid guy that said, Oh, I can do that. So, that attitude, that [00:13:00] being hung up, that, Oh, that’s really hard. I want to do it. Let me do it. [00:13:05] Sometimes it’s, it’s like football, the, the, the, there’s the guy, there’s this guy, like, I don’t want the pressure, the other way, [00:13:10] I want the ball.
[00:13:10] Alex: I’m going to like go through all of these people with my, whatever. So having [00:13:15] that attitude helps a lot and not our thinking too much, just like doing. And then [00:13:20] I keep up because I wake up at 5 a. m. every day and I build things. I don’t read [00:13:25] about things. That’s how you
[00:13:27] Thomas: build, you deploy, you feel fast. I [00:13:30] feel
[00:13:30] Alex: a lot by the way, but yeah, and that’s the whole
[00:13:34] Thomas: failing.
[00:13:34] Thomas: You learn, [00:13:35] right?
[00:13:36] Alex: And I mean, I’ve seen like a lot of tech guys, like going to management, going to [00:13:40] law. So, and then of course they have a lot of experience, but at some point their experience is managing people, but not with technology. [00:13:45] And that’s a different skill. And by the way, it’s really needed. We need a lot of people with that skill.
[00:13:49] Alex: It’s [00:13:50] not that it’s bad, but then of course, like they have their job and then they need to keep up with [00:13:55] technology and that, then, then it gets hard.
[00:13:57] Liam: Yeah. It’s the old move, fast, break things. Yeah. [00:14:00] And I mean, I think we’re moving on here to the, advice for [00:14:05] founders, section. I think that’s a really great one already.
[00:14:09] Liam: Which [00:14:10] I would actually entitle kind of. Be stupid.
[00:14:12] Alex: Yeah.
[00:14:13] Liam: [00:14:15] Yeah.
[00:14:15] Alex: Don’t know if you think too much, like there’s so many things that can go wrong that you will never do anything. Just do [00:14:20] it. Break it. And then see what happens.
[00:14:22] Thomas: Yeah. It’s better to fill a hundred times than not to [00:14:25] fill at all. Right.
[00:14:25] Alex: But not, not, but when I, like, you asked me, like, what do you recommend to, [00:14:30] to entrepreneurs?
[00:14:30] Alex: Don’t be, don’t be entrepreneur. Usually I do a lot of talks for entrepreneurs, [00:14:35] like universities, kind of things. And always when, like, I asked, like, who wants to be entrepreneur? And [00:14:40] like all of the room, all of them, like, I want to all meet me. Yes. Amazing. Who wants to get [00:14:45] broke? Who wants to get divorced?
[00:14:47] Alex: Who wants to lose their friends? Of [00:14:50] course, health. You don’t need that. That’s something nobody, you know. Free [00:14:55] time. And that’s it. And honestly, most of the people, [00:15:00] they just go low down and whoa. And then you see a couple of people in the back, always in the back. [00:15:05] Like so excited about, yeah, I want that life.
[00:15:07] Alex: And it’s not for everybody. [00:15:10] You need to be stupid. Yeah, yeah, right. You need to be quite stupid because like you’re choosing the [00:15:15] hardest path ever. And if you think about too much, probably you would not do it. Nobody [00:15:20] would do it.
[00:15:21] Liam: So I remember talking to, Ross McKenzie, who was [00:15:25] one of our guests, he used to do, billions of dollars worth of sales for IBM and his [00:15:30] kind of vibe around entrepreneurs is that you have entrepreneurs and you have enthusiastic [00:15:35] amateurs and you’re one or the other.
[00:15:37] Liam: And I feel like [00:15:40] you can still be what a lot of people will consider an entrepreneur as one of these enthusiastic [00:15:45] amateurs, but it’s kind of choosing that lane, isn’t it? There’s the entrepreneur that you say that just does the meetings [00:15:50] and raises funds, and then you’ve got the entrepreneur like yourself that moves fast and breaks things and does it [00:15:55] themselves.
[00:15:55] Liam: And I think it was, I don’t agree with him very much, but I thought this was interesting as [00:16:00] Elon Musk was recently talking about the fact that we need more engineers as CEOs, more people that can [00:16:05] actually do things. Is that something you’d agree with?
[00:16:08] Alex: For me, the difference is [00:16:10] between, I see that a lot.
[00:16:13] Alex: I don’t think of [00:16:15] myself as an entrepreneur, because I have just, I have an idea in my mind. I want to see that [00:16:20] idea working. So I don’t care. I just like have something with like context [00:16:25] protocol. I thought about this, the semantic way we can bring that on Web3. And I want to see that [00:16:30] working. And there is a lot of entrepreneurs that they’re looking for the idea.
[00:16:33] Alex: Because their idea of [00:16:35] being an entrepreneur is to build something big, to get rich, whatever. And then, yes, they get excited about raising [00:16:40] money. And they even, they celebrate raising money. Raising money is a big responsibility. You should never celebrate that. [00:16:45] Because you owe that money to someone. And, and they get lost on this idea of, [00:16:50] you know, beautiful idea that you’re free, you do whatever you want, you’re an entrepreneur.[00:16:55]
[00:16:55] Alex: And you want to be an entrepreneur. I think like most of the You know, [00:17:00] Oh, geez. Or whatever you want to call them. They don’t think of themselves as entrepreneurs. They just do [00:17:05] things. And it’s not that I’m looking for the next big thing to do it. I just see a problem and I need to [00:17:10] solve that problem and I’m not looking for the problem I just you know that I could do better and [00:17:15] then I get obsessed with that So I think that that’s like these two paths and I like this idea of i’m a [00:17:20] dare somehow Because i’ve seen that a lot like okay.
[00:17:22] Alex: I want to be entrepreneur I’m gonna i’m gonna join a [00:17:25] university to do a course on entrepreneurship. It’s like What? [00:17:30] Yeah,
[00:17:31] Liam: it’s crazy. I think it’s it’s it’s being humble. [00:17:35] Isn’t it? It’s the aspect of knowing knowing that there’s lots that you don’t know yet You And [00:17:40] you can always learn but but
[00:17:41] Alex: then it’s it that’s once again Like what you you [00:17:45] want you’re doing something you feel so many times.
[00:17:47] Alex: It’s impossible not being humble Because you [00:17:50] feel well because you’re stupid you just try things and then of course you fail So you try again and you fail again And then you [00:17:55] speak with a lot of people because you want that to succeed you speak with smarter people than you you never speak to [00:18:00] people That says no, you’re right.
[00:18:02] Alex: You don’t like that kind of people. I don’t like them I like people saying you’re wrong [00:18:05] because that’s not gonna work because of this. Oh shit. That’s good idea So And then because you’re [00:18:10] speaking all the time with people that they know better than you and whatever you hire, I always hire people to tell [00:18:15] me what to do, not the other way around.
[00:18:17] Alex: If I had someone in marketing, I want him [00:18:20] or her to be way better than me. And so, and then of course, [00:18:25] we’re with these kinds of people that makes, makes you feel humble all of the time, because there’s so many things you don’t know. I used to [00:18:30] say that knowledge is like a balloon that there’s like the, the things, you know, inside of the balloon, it’s the air.[00:18:35]
[00:18:35] Alex: And then the things you do, you don’t know are outside. [00:18:40] Basically, you just know the things you didn’t know, but you didn’t know the things you didn’t know. [00:18:45] And the more you get more knowledge inside that the surface, the area of the balloon grows [00:18:50] and the things that you, you get to know that you didn’t know, they keep on growing exponentially.
[00:18:54] Alex: So every [00:18:55] time that you just like get some air of knowledge, the kind of, there’s like, yes, now I know [00:19:00] this. Now I know that I know do this, this, this. And it gets great. So there was [00:19:05] again, like, Thomas, you have to be stupid and don’t overthink too much. You’re never going to be smart [00:19:10] enough. You’re never going to get there.
[00:19:11] Alex: So you just keep on pushing and trying, otherwise, like, [00:19:15] if you wait for everything to be perfect, you will never do that. It’s like, [00:19:20] the perfection is the opposite of done, I think, they say. So
[00:19:23] Thomas: yeah, [00:19:25] so
[00:19:27] Liam: no, I don’t want to say I wanted to jump on so [00:19:30] In terms of another tip here you talk about failing a lot.
[00:19:33] Liam: How do you deal with [00:19:35] failure? Because
[00:19:36] Alex: like I don’t know it’s part of my life. I don’t think failure. It’s a bad thing [00:19:40] Someone say like I never fail. I just found [00:19:45] thousand ways of not doing it, right?
[00:19:47] Liam: No, but in terms of if you were [00:19:50] Talking to someone that’s just starting out and you need to say that you’re gonna fail lots You What would [00:19:55] be the advice of how to deal with that failure knowing that it’s going to come a lot?
[00:19:59] Alex: So [00:20:00] I I my advice would be uh being able to identify failure on different [00:20:05] topics It’s not the same feeling that address something It didn’t work or I try something and I lost two [00:20:10] hundred thousand dollars Or I try something didn’t work lost two hundred thousand dollars and I I now I [00:20:15] own that money To a to a bank So [00:20:20] being able to identify this kind of failure, you know being able to identify the risk on everything you do [00:20:25] And manage that risk in a way that it’s like calculated risk I mean i’m gonna feel [00:20:30] big but then I can you know raise up again because i’m okay [00:20:35] I never lost my you know health or never lost my you know, wealth So it’s [00:20:40] not that basically that’s the end of it.
[00:20:42] Alex: So being able to identify those risks [00:20:45] At the end of the day, being an entrepreneur is like about cash management, you need like cashflow, being [00:20:50] able to understand like where you are, where do you want to be? And then with that, make all the [00:20:55] mistakes. And of course, you’re going to lose a lot of money at the beginning because you’re going to make a lot of bad decisions.
[00:20:59] Alex: You’re going to [00:21:00] hire the wrong people. You’re going to, you know, but then
[00:21:04] Thomas: you learn. [00:21:05] So, so I, I, I like that perspective. But then if we talk, let’s say about future proofing, right? [00:21:10] Like, let’s say we build on, I think context is a very good example. So, you know, you’re, you’re [00:21:15] building something. you hope will scale over time.
[00:21:18] Thomas: So [00:21:20] how do you ensure that you’re, you’re built future proof technology, [00:21:25] that is inflexible, and can I think [00:21:30] add value to what you do within the boundaries of failing, right? Because you will [00:21:35] still feel. Often and fast, but how, how do you ensure that your future prove your, your [00:21:40] failures?
[00:21:40] Alex: It’s, it’s, it’s really hard because you cannot predict most of the things you’re going to predict them.
[00:21:44] Alex: You can [00:21:45] choose a chain that may be like, it just come in a couple of months or it gets hacked. Or there’s so many things [00:21:50] that they are not up to you. It’s not your failure. Of course you fail because you do something, but [00:21:55] it’s not your fault. You. As an entrepreneur, I think you never have enough information about like [00:22:00] everything you’re doing, but then on the engineering side, yes, then [00:22:05] I plan everything that’s modular.
[00:22:06] Alex: I never like, I never trust just one technology. [00:22:10] So if I need to connect to a blockchain, I just do it modular in a way that, okay, this [00:22:15] blockchain didn’t work. And then how long it takes to connect the new blockchain? 5 million. So [00:22:20] yeah, just think about that. Like, because we don’t [00:22:25] know. So that’s like every time we’re using our wave amazing.
[00:22:28] Alex: What if our wave doesn’t work then? [00:22:30] Okay. You’re right. Then we can connect a FileCon or whatever. And think about [00:22:35] that. And. But that’s a good thing. You feel so many times that you already know that things fail. So you’re prepared for [00:22:40] that. Your mindset changes because it’s not failure. It’s just like
[00:22:43] Thomas: evolution.
[00:22:44] Thomas: But this is, [00:22:45] this is a very important thing for our listeners. And that’s why, you know, we kind of just, you use a bundle of three, three [00:22:50] advices into one. But most of our listeners, some of our listeners are, Like maybe [00:22:55] veterans in web two, but go to web three. And web three works [00:23:00] definitely a little bit different when it comes to development and looking at technology.
[00:23:03] Thomas: But also like [00:23:05] just first time founders in, in, in, in the web three space. [00:23:10] I think you said something that’s really important here. It’s like, because one of [00:23:15] the questions I hate choosing the right tech stack is like, well, make it modular, right? Make sure that you can [00:23:20] switch out things left and right.
[00:23:21] Thomas: Don’t make it dependable. Because if you do. [00:23:25] If you make it monolithic, and it turns out that whatever you build on or whatever [00:23:30] third party decides to stop your, your big, bad trouble, right? So it doesn’t, it [00:23:35] doesn’t matter what the right tech stack in terms of technology is, it matters on how you build it from an [00:23:40] architecture perspective where you’re able to remove things, If [00:23:45] they are a risk or becoming a risk in the future, like for instance, any chain you’re building on [00:23:50]
[00:23:50] Alex: you, you need to have a plan B and plan C for everything.
[00:23:53] Alex: It’s like, okay, what happens if I [00:23:55] get hacked? No, no, no, no. What happens when you get hacked? It’s probably that’s going to happen. It [00:24:00] doesn’t matter if it’s really good or bad. So your ability to plan in the future [00:24:05] and then plan for that plan, then I’m going to fail. I know that for sure. So [00:24:10] then whenever you fail, you’re prepared.
[00:24:11] Alex: You’re right. It’s like, you knew that I knew that. Of course [00:24:15] it’s, it hurts, but then it’s like you, you get strong and just move forward. [00:24:20] And by the way, lately with web three, most of the times it’s not about technology. Nobody [00:24:25] cares. It’s like more business decision. Like whenever we choose the, which blockchain we want to deploy right now, [00:24:30] we’re choosing the blockchain we want to deploy for maintenance.
[00:24:32] Alex: And it’s a business decision. It’s like, who’s going to [00:24:35] be more users, partners. So more on the business side right now, it’s more important than [00:24:40] actually the tech side. And if the deck side needs modular and it’s ready, and I’m really [00:24:45] obsessed with testing. So all of my software, it’s always like, has like, you know, you need this for everything.[00:24:50]
[00:24:50] Alex: So then if I change the module, I just pass the, all of the tests and I’m ready to go. This, [00:24:55] this is,
[00:24:55] Thomas: sorry, go ahead, Dean.
[00:24:57] Liam: No, I was just going to say, and I think with the [00:25:00] rise, you were talking about TrackDBT earlier, we’ve seen how good Cloud 3. 5 [00:25:05] Sonnet is at coding. I think it’s only going to get easier to, you know, [00:25:10] Transpose code to another platform as well as AI gets better
[00:25:14] Alex: [00:25:15] completely.
[00:25:15] Alex: But then if you plan for that from the beginning, then that’s fine.
[00:25:19] Thomas: Yeah. And that’s a, [00:25:20] that’s a future proofing piece, right? Like making sure that you can bring in new technologies. It’s not [00:25:25] about, and this is always the interesting thing is like, we, we talk a lot to our clients and they’re like, yeah, you know, [00:25:30] we, we love Avalanche and we want to build on Avalanche and we’re like, okay, what are you [00:25:35] going to build?
[00:25:35] Thomas: And then they come with this idea and we’re like, well, there’s better chains out there, that, [00:25:40] that can do this on technology perspective. And also there’s better chains that can do some business perspective. And [00:25:45] it’s very often where clients kind of get married to a certain [00:25:50] technology. Oh, we love TypeScript.
[00:25:51] Thomas: So. Yeah, but nobody cares about it. Your end users don’t care about it. [00:25:55] And your end user doesn’t care on the block, which, which chain you are. Unless when [00:26:00] it comes to, you know, bringing more users in yet, then it, then it makes sense. But if you are [00:26:05] an, an, a maxi on any technology, it doesn’t. I think [00:26:10] it’s a really big risk towards future, but also towards like what you’re building because you’re building [00:26:15] exclusively for one chain.
[00:26:16] Thomas: And whatever happens to that chain, you, you can’t [00:26:20] influence, right? If that breaks down, you’re done.
[00:26:23] Alex: But not just blockchain, any technology, me [00:26:25] as a coder, I can code in almost, I’ve been coding like forever. I can code in anything, I [00:26:30] don’t care. And honestly, like one, one of my favorite languages is Rust because I come from, you [00:26:35] Working with, machine code.
[00:26:37] Alex: So I mean, like coding at low level [00:26:40] and I love that, but then business wise, it makes no sense, like hiring people with [00:26:45] experience in Rust, that’s really hard. So, and then you can find a lot of people maybe [00:26:50] with TypeScript, JavaScript or, or Go, so that’s a business decision. Once again, like you, you [00:26:55] cannot get in love with the technology.
[00:26:56] Alex: It doesn’t help. And then you need to plan that that technology that you’re just [00:27:00] building right now, it’s an MVP, maybe whatever it will change. Like me, myself, I built most of the, [00:27:05] the, the text that we have, but we, we just recently add the CTO. And now he’s [00:27:10] taking all of the decisions because he’s the CTO.
[00:27:12] Alex: No matter if like, I have a lot of experience [00:27:15] in technology, it’s up to him to decide and probably he will be [00:27:20] changing things and then probably we’ll have someone else and we will be keep on evolving. If you don’t plan for evolution, [00:27:25] you will end up like I was working for a bank and, and this bank, they never planned for that.
[00:27:29] Alex: So most of [00:27:30] the banks, they don’t. So at some point, 70 percent of the code was [00:27:35] older than 25 years.
[00:27:38] Thomas: Yeah, and that that’s more common than [00:27:40] people actually, think it’s very very common. Yeah
[00:27:43] Alex: It means that [00:27:45] basically changing a couple of lines of code, whatever it is It’s like around [00:27:50] two days to change like even a copy two days And it’s the budget of [00:27:55] 2 000 euros to change and it gets crazy
[00:27:59] Liam: [00:28:00] So i’m pretty sure there’s still some atms in the uk running on windows 98 [00:28:05] That’s not even a joke like genuinely there are You I’m talking about [00:28:10] testing does what unit testing a moment ago.
[00:28:12] Liam: How do you product test your proof of [00:28:15] concept?
[00:28:15] Alex: I, I, I, at the beginning, like my background, I was [00:28:20] working for a setup called, Softonic. So basically we had around 50 million users. [00:28:25] And at that time, if something was wrong, the code where we are making, [00:28:30] we were making a, as a, as team, but for every five minutes, we were losing 5, 000.
[00:28:34] Alex: So [00:28:35] we were, everything was like, it needed to be smooth. It was crazy. And the kind of responsibility. So [00:28:40] that’s my background. So at the beginning, when I started as an entrepreneur, I was like creating code [00:28:45] that could handle millions of, you know, petitions. And I had five users. So [00:28:50] learn a lot about that to fake everything at the beginning.
[00:28:53] Alex: So [00:28:55] it’s, it’s, I call it like the, the chopping process and I have this idea and what [00:29:00] I need to build. And then I keep on chopping and chopping and chopping. And then I talk a lot, like with my [00:29:05] team or even my wife, like she has a lot of experience there. And what are you going to build? I’m going to build this.
[00:29:09] Alex: You [00:29:10] don’t need this. You don’t need this. Chop that, chop that. And you, you get to the core of what you’re building and then [00:29:15] just try it out. See if people, you know, that, so being able to chop. [00:29:20] But then once like you chop it you have everything first like I do the tests always like I don’t know why most [00:29:25] of the People they think that you lose more time writing the test than the code Usually I first write the [00:29:30] test and then I do the code and then from there evolving It’s really hard.
[00:29:33] Alex: It’s really easy. [00:29:35] And then you move faster. You you make a lot of time for yourself and security, of course [00:29:40] But chopping with an axe like everything I can from the beginning [00:29:45] Everything even something it’s like can be manual. I can do it manual You [00:29:50] So I will receive an email and then I will set up in the backend.
[00:29:52] Alex: Don’t of course, like at the [00:29:55] beginning, even like, admin tools, whatever, don’t do that. [00:30:00] Just like
[00:30:00] Thomas: keep it simple,
[00:30:01] Alex: keep it simple, core business, make it work. And once again, [00:30:05] it’s like it’s a good prompt to have needing to scale running. So [00:30:10] you’re gonna do that.
[00:30:11] Thomas: Yeah,
[00:30:12] Alex: but at the beginning probably I would spend more time on ux than [00:30:15] on like my technology being able to scale Like so we’re gonna
[00:30:19] Thomas: feel fast.[00:30:20]
[00:30:20] Alex: Yeah feel fast. Yeah. Yeah, but then Because it’s easier to, you know, build software for me, it’s easier than [00:30:25] explaining whatever I’m building to people. So building the narrative, being able to [00:30:30] explain that in a way that people, the users, they just come to your place and they naturally know what they [00:30:35] have to do.
[00:30:35] Alex: That’s the hardest part.
[00:30:37] Thomas: So, so let me ask you a question regarding, because [00:30:40] like, I have had so many discussions regarding POCs and MVPs, right? [00:30:45] And we, we always said, look, POCs are just, [00:30:50] And, you know, there’s a very simple user flow, [00:30:55] right. And MVP, we always say, look, MVP is something that you can deploy.
[00:30:58] Thomas: onto the market, it [00:31:00] has generally one happy, happy path for the user and you can get paying [00:31:05] customers, right? Like that, that’s skill from there. And very often we see [00:31:10] like, yeah, no, but a POC needs to be able to, you know, onboard users and do all this crazy things. It’s like, [00:31:15]
[00:31:16] Alex: Sometimes we’ve been doing POCs and showing the [00:31:20] Figma without even coding the backend.
[00:31:22] Thomas: Yeah. Just clickable, clickable Figmas. [00:31:25] Yeah, this is how it’s going to look like. This is what it’s, this [00:31:30] is what it will represent. Hey, is this something you like? And, and I [00:31:35] think very often in, in web two, where we’ve seen a lot by web three as well, like people [00:31:40] confuse that concept, right? So they talk about POC is like, no, not what you’re talking about as an MVP and MVP is [00:31:45] obviously more work, takes more time, takes more man hours.
[00:31:48] Thomas: There’s more risk involved. [00:31:50] Have you, have you ever, have you done the POC step? Because I think that’s a very valuable point. [00:31:55] To just at least like market test or backtest your ideas, your perspectives. Hey, do people [00:32:00] actually like this? Does this actually make sense? You don’t, if you do that with an MVP, you’re going to probably [00:32:05] spend a lot of time and money and effort, for something that may not be [00:32:10] a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, right?
[00:32:12] Thomas: Like
[00:32:13] Alex: And in Web3, it’s even [00:32:15] worse because when you do an MVP in Web3, there’s a lot of things you need to take into account as you can [00:32:20] imagine, like, of course, security transactions, It’s not that [00:32:25] easy. So, but then an MVP, you can just like play with that. And then of course you [00:32:30] can move, move faster than when you have like, if you know what you want to build, it’s faster to build [00:32:35] an MVP.
[00:32:35] Alex: But honestly, if you have an idea, you don’t know what you’re building.
[00:32:39] Thomas: [00:32:40] Yeah. Yeah. And so, but we had a conversation yesterday with some of our, partners that are [00:32:45] doing a lot of go to market and ideation, like they start with ideation stage and the [00:32:50] amount of clients that we start with, and they’re like, Oh yeah, we have a [00:32:55] really great solution.
[00:32:55] Thomas: Okay. What’s the problem that it solves? And they’re starting actually back. It’s like, okay, [00:33:00] what are the problems? And they, you can’t, you can’t name the solutions as a problem. And they, they [00:33:05] realized that 80 percent of the time they built something. There’s no value. But in their head, there is [00:33:10] because, you know, it’s a great idea.
[00:33:11] Thomas: It’s another wallet on chain X, which does [00:33:15] five things different. It’s like, it was going to be your users. Well, we’ll figure it out. [00:33:20] Maybe the other way around.
[00:33:24] Alex: Me, me too. I [00:33:25] see that a lot with a lot of entrepreneurs that they just come to me. I have this crazy idea and nobody’s [00:33:30] doing that. Maybe there’s a reason for that.
[00:33:33] Alex: Nobody’s.
[00:33:33] Thomas: Yeah, [00:33:35] that’s, that’s, that’s a very, very good point. There’s sometimes a reason why people don’t do it. [00:33:40] There’s a reason why some of the industries can’t be disrupted because disrupting it is going to [00:33:45] cost you a hundred billion dollars and a lot of traction and it’s not, when people talk about [00:33:50] disruption, it’s often a very small piece of an industry.
[00:33:53] Thomas: That has a niche and of that niche [00:33:55] you do a disruption and that’s the disruption of that piece of industry. You don’t disrupt the [00:34:00] whole industry. But
[00:34:02] Alex: then like I think like [00:34:05] people is confused with that. It’s like startups are in war with corporates something like that. [00:34:10] Um And honestly i’ve always been in in in the nowhere land in the middle ground [00:34:15] like me myself because i’m a coder So basically I work with the community and, but then I [00:34:20] work a lot with a big corporates and then for the corporates, I’m the hacker, you know, the geek [00:34:25] guy, hacker, you know, but then for the hackers that I work with, they go with, [00:34:30] then they look at me.
[00:34:30] Alex: It’s like, you’re the corporate guy because you speak with these guys. The truth is like by far [00:34:35] technology made by the community, but open source and hackers is way better.
[00:34:39] Thomas: Yeah. [00:34:40] But then you want
[00:34:40] Alex: to have impact. The guys from the corporate they know a bit about that. So you need to listen to them [00:34:45] And sometimes use crazy idea.
[00:34:47] Alex: Nobody did and the corporate is not doing you talk to the corporate and [00:34:50] maybe in five minutes It’s like just five minute interview with the corporate. They will tell you why they are not doing [00:34:55] that It’s like because people we try that people don’t want us. It’s like it’s as simple as that. We try [00:35:00] that they don’t want it.
[00:35:01] Alex: So Being able to work. [00:35:05] It’s not a word corporation like talk to corporates sometimes and ask them why? You Why [00:35:10] there’s no solution like that. And they’re going to tell you why sometimes, and it’s going to hurt once again.
[00:35:14] Thomas: Yeah, [00:35:15] but that’s, that’s a very good perspective. Definitely a web three. [00:35:20] So I wanted to, like, you know, we, we had another one and that’s interesting.
[00:35:23] Thomas: Because [00:35:25] AI has been a hot topic for the last two years, right? Like specifically LLMs, how do you see [00:35:30] the whole AI narrative playing into the web three technologies? Like Liam and myself had a [00:35:35] couple of really hot discussions about this on, on how. Where AI [00:35:40] sits and where it goes, and if AI at this point is not Web3, how do you [00:35:45] see this whole AI narrative?
[00:35:46] Thomas: And we’re not necessarily talking about the coding structure, but the [00:35:50] general LLM vision and perspective. How do you see that play into the Web3 technologies? [00:35:55]
[00:35:55] Alex: And that’s a discussion that I’ve had a lot too. And I’ve been really like, as you can imagine, I’m really [00:36:00] into, AI doing it using formal work in many different ways.
[00:36:04] Alex: And [00:36:05] coding LLM, and lang chain and all of these things. I’m, I’m, [00:36:10] I’m, I’m really scared a lot. I mean, it’s about, you know, [00:36:15] training LLMs at the end of the day. It’s about training AI. So the way we train [00:36:20] AI is we’ll be probably, you know, in, in, in science fiction, there’s like, there’s three paths that [00:36:25] AI can take.
[00:36:26] Alex: One is that basically, it’s good. It helps us. It [00:36:30] improves lives. Everybody’s happy. Second, it’s bad. It kills us all. [00:36:35] Now, I’d be third is like, AI sees us as [00:36:40] ants. So it ignores us completely. And as long as we don’t get in the, in the way that’s going to be, [00:36:45] so three paths, and depends on the way we train [00:36:50] AI right now, it’s going to be like, probably the, the part we are going to take.
[00:36:53] Alex: So the [00:36:55] responsibility we have right now at society to train AI in a way that information can be trusted, [00:37:00] because it’s not that easy. If you think like, you just look at internet, it’s crazy. Like a lot of fake [00:37:05] information. So if we use all this fake information, false lies, [00:37:10] whatever, you know, everybody’s like creating conflict just to get more power.
[00:37:13] Alex: So if we use that information to train AI, [00:37:15] we are. So we have a responsibility to, to find a way [00:37:20] to, in a collaborative with, I’m not going to say democratic way, collaborative way between [00:37:25] AI and, and also in a way that all of the, the, the different algorithms are [00:37:30] open source and we can check them. Maybe then we have a chance to do [00:37:35] something good.
[00:37:36] Alex: And then it’s not really web3, I would say decentralized. [00:37:40] In the sense that if we have an open source decentralized way of training [00:37:45] and verifying What ai is doing maybe we have a chance if we if we give that power to just [00:37:50] governments like europe They’re going to regulate but then they are really so afraid of everything.
[00:37:53] Alex: So they’re going to create some crazy [00:37:55] regulation And I don’t know or even companies. So
[00:37:58] Liam: what are your thoughts [00:38:00] on on bit tensor then? What do you mean you are a bit tensor? [00:38:05] Yeah, because I mean their goal with their kind of their submits is to [00:38:10] allow You The decentralized training of AI models. So is that something you [00:38:15] think is moving in the right direction?
[00:38:16] Alex: Yes, exactly. Completely. In fact, like, Context Protocol, [00:38:20] we started as like, you know, a company so everybody can like be, have self serving data [00:38:25] for everyone. So, all of your public data instead of being owned by, you know, LinkedIn, [00:38:30] Microsoft, whatever. It’s like all by you and then you decide whether to change it or whatever.
[00:38:34] Alex: But then we have a way to [00:38:35] verify that. And then lately we’ve been like working a lot on integrating all of this data into AI, you know, [00:38:40] as a community. So the way in AI is as a community. [00:38:45] And, and I think that’s the real way to go. So it’s, it’s about governance. It’s about that [00:38:50] data governance. It’s about like being able to challenge any information in a way that’s like reasonable.
[00:38:54] Alex: [00:38:55] So.
[00:38:56] Liam: I couldn’t agree more. I think things like what context is doing. [00:39:00] Just absolutely critical because we need those. I mean, there’s other AI projects as well. And I think [00:39:05] that competition is what we need as well to drive the whole community forward in the right way. [00:39:10] But yeah, being able to know around AI [00:39:15] origination, and AI training, where the data’s come from.
[00:39:18] Liam: Whether you can trust it or not These are some of the [00:39:20] biggest problems that we actually have and they’re not the ones that are most talked about
[00:39:24] Alex: In fact [00:39:25] like because we have this name service you you can get your domain Whatever one of the first decisions we made is like [00:39:30] we didn’t want to sell the domains I don’t want you like just because you can pay for that.
[00:39:34] Alex: You can get a [00:39:35] name Because then you lose like all of this credibility you need to have. But [00:39:40] then like by putting the data on web3 storage, like R Wave or FileGuard, it doesn’t matter, [00:39:45] but then you have to stability. It’s like a lot of data linked to a domain that can be trusted and verified. [00:39:50] So you can create all of the chain of, not just for civility, but [00:39:55] accountability on data.
[00:39:57] Alex: You cannot make up things, they are on the block. [00:40:00] So for me, it’s really important that basically Web3 and AI, they work together [00:40:05] in that, otherwise, honestly, like I’ve seen so many crazy things lately. [00:40:10] And of course, there’s a lot of inequality in society, but then with AI, it’s going to be, it’s going to even [00:40:15] get worse.
[00:40:16] Alex: You’re going to have data inequality. Yeah. People think [00:40:20] about basic, basic income. So everybody gets paid. Ah, that’s fine. But maybe we do start talking [00:40:25] about, basic computation, income, something like that. So you have your own [00:40:30] amount of computation. You can use an AI to, you know, to advance in your career.
[00:40:34] Alex: Maybe, [00:40:35] because right now it’s not money. Like anybody with, I have a really amazing [00:40:40] computer that I just bought just for that. So I have a competitive, competitive advantage against [00:40:45] anyone that doesn’t have this kind of computing because like I can train it, I can configure it. It does everything. I [00:40:50] have agent.
[00:40:50] Alex: So it’s amazing.
[00:40:51] Liam: Yeah. I love that. Universal basic [00:40:55] computing. That’s brilliant. I
[00:40:58] Alex: read the book. It’s not, it’s not mine, [00:41:00] but, but I thought like, well, I was, you know, Thinking this makes sense [00:41:05]
[00:41:05] Liam: So we talked about a lot of really complex, uh things there [00:41:10] when you are Either running a business or starting up if you [00:41:15] don’t have the knowledge to say Right in line chain or [00:41:20] to, understand different blockchains.
[00:41:22] Liam: I know your perspective is that you like to just [00:41:25] learn and use AI. Do you suggest that that’s what other people do to [00:41:30] get their team to upskill? Or do you think outsourcing for that role makes more [00:41:35] sense? Both.
[00:41:37] Alex: Honestly, like for me, usually I get [00:41:40] a core team with, you know, the core knowledge of the business.
[00:41:44] Alex: But [00:41:45] then there’s a lot of things like, uh, DevOps, or even like the [00:41:50] website, there’s a lot of things that probably once you know what you want to do, they don’t add that much [00:41:55] value. So having like, I, I’ve been in different startups and some of them, [00:42:00] they wanted to do everything on their, on their own.
[00:42:01] Alex: I was in one startup, we started 20 people. When I left, we were more [00:42:05] than 200 people. But then I, I felt that we could do the same, like [00:42:10] with 20, we, we, we could, we were like creating as much software as with 200 [00:42:15] almost. Yeah. So I would say like, [00:42:20] keep your core business inside, outsource [00:42:25] everything else, everything that you can outsource, because it’s not vital to your business model, just if you [00:42:30] can do it.
[00:42:30] Alex: Otherwise, like teams, they’re, they’re gonna, they get really big and then you become like [00:42:35] really inefficient. So,
[00:42:37] Thomas: so I just want to ask something [00:42:40] about that because like, you’re obviously, you have a big tech background, right? Like how is that for non [00:42:45] technical founders? Because bringing in knowledge in house also means that you need to vet [00:42:50] like your CTO or, you know, your, your first three, four devs, [00:42:55] Hard.
[00:42:55] Thomas: If you’re having not technical experience.
[00:42:57] Alex: Yeah. You, you, you need, you need someone, I [00:43:00] think, like I’ve seen like in the, in the vendor studio, some of them, [00:43:05] they never got a CTO at the beginning as it was not that important [00:43:10] and they had the hardest time by not having someone at least, because even [00:43:15] if I outsource technology, I need to have someone that understands how to outsource technologies.
[00:43:19] Alex: I [00:43:20] can outsource technology because I know what I want. Thomas, I need this. [00:43:25] This is the way I want it. And, and maybe sometimes they’re going to say, Oh, it’s going to take two weeks. And it’s not, [00:43:30] that’s today. So, you know, that, so that’s kind of experience helps a [00:43:35] lot. And I think you need that. And for me, like, there was a question, like you, [00:43:40] I think you, you made me like something really important is like my, my first sale, every, [00:43:45] every time I started a company, I do a startup.
[00:43:47] Alex: The first sale is your team. And, and [00:43:50] going from this concept to an MVP. You need the, I think for [00:43:55] the MVP, you need the CTO. So the proof of concept will help you sell to the CTO. [00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Thomas: Fair. Yeah. You need, you need something from a business direction. I think a POC can [00:44:05] help with that. I can visualize. Yeah. I absolutely agree.
[00:44:08] Alex: But then with that, you can sell to [00:44:10] your team and you don’t need a big team, but you know, I think, you know, [00:44:15] management organization on finance and technology, it’s not that much. But [00:44:20] I always recommend having someone with experience and and I know it’s it’s not it’s going to be an [00:44:25] unpopular opinion Don’t hire young people.
[00:44:28] Thomas: Don’t hire young people. No, I [00:44:30] Okay, so like why?
[00:44:33] Alex: um [00:44:35] First of course like lack of experience They’re not that humble. [00:44:40] Of course, we’ve all been young and we were not as well as we are right now. So, because you have not built up [00:44:45] and you need to feel a lot to be humble. Drama. Sometimes like everything, [00:44:50] it’s a big drama for them.
[00:44:51] Alex: Young people is like, because everything is about them. And [00:44:55] seeing people usually like I think we’re stronger in that sense [00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Thomas: So you you would argue but that I assume that’s for your core team, right? Like I [00:45:05] always like Yeah, yeah, if you build out your team, you can probably add junior developers or or [00:45:10] mid developers in there just You know for your core team you want stable
[00:45:14] Alex: not at the [00:45:15] beginning because like if if you has There’s a lot of really good junior [00:45:20] people But we thought of it means that you need to tell them what to do and to [00:45:25] help them and to teach them That’s a lot of time you don’t have
[00:45:28] Thomas: yeah
[00:45:28] Alex: So having [00:45:30] really young people with no experience means that you’re going to spend a lot of your time that you have to be racing [00:45:35] Marketing doing a lot of stuff.
[00:45:38] Alex: Telling this guy, no, no, this is a loop. [00:45:40] This is how you look. No, no, no, this is not going to work because like wallets work like that. [00:45:45] Things that for me, they’re really basic.
[00:45:47] Thomas: So, so, so [00:45:50] if I would flip it around, I would say like, okay, because there’s a lot of these young startups, technical, young startup founders, right?
[00:45:54] Thomas: [00:45:55] Like, we see them a lot when we work with accelerators and, you know, these guys are like between 20, [00:46:00] 25, maybe coded for a couple of years. So what would you advise them? Because they’re, they’re generally like, you [00:46:05] know, young, eager, relatively technical, I would say. [00:46:10] It’s like find, find an older, more experienced person in your team [00:46:15] More on the business side or actually more on the, on the tech side or both maybe?
[00:46:18] Alex: Both, [00:46:20] both, because that can help a lot. And honestly, I’ve seen people like that, 25, 24, and they’re really [00:46:25] good on the tech side.
[00:46:25] Thomas: Yeah.
[00:46:27] Alex: But then it’s like, Oh no, I’m the CTO because I have the best [00:46:30] tech guide ever. And first you’re not. And second being a CTO, it’s not about [00:46:35] knowing, knowing technology. It’s about managing a team and managing, [00:46:40] providers and being able to choose the best provider for what you do.
[00:46:43] Alex: Whatever it’s like, [00:46:45] you know, cloud or whatever, outsourcing, being able to find the right [00:46:50] team to outsource. And that’s a lot of things that they have nothing to see with technology. It’s [00:46:55] about experience. It’s about, you know, how you, you can handle and manage people. Usually me [00:47:00] myself, I am really good at the beginning because I like, I charge with everything and just move forward.
[00:47:04] Alex: But then [00:47:05] I don’t like much managing people. So that’s why I have a CTO who’s better than me at managing [00:47:10] people.
[00:47:11] Thomas: Yep. So you can focus on building. Yeah,
[00:47:14] Liam: [00:47:15] I can really resonate with that. I just it made me realize something. So when I first started [00:47:20] my second business we got our biggest contract which was like a [00:47:25] huge government website project And it was it needs to be built on umbraco [00:47:30] and we were like wordpress guys We had no idea about umbraco in the [00:47:35] slightest.
[00:47:35] Liam: Most of our developers were php or javascript so we won the contract [00:47:40] anyway, um Because we knew we could bring someone in, to do the back end part. And we hired a guy [00:47:45] that was about 10 years older than all of us, because we were all in our kind of early to mid twenties. [00:47:50] And having him on board, he helped us [00:47:55] realize, like we were saying earlier, the stuff we didn’t know, we didn’t know.
[00:47:58] Liam: And also, what [00:48:00] stuff we thought we didn’t know, That we didn’t need to know that we thought we needed to learn. Like, [00:48:05] Oh, like we thought there were so many things we were missing. Like we need to learn this. We need to do this. And he’s like, nah, nah, nah, all that [00:48:10] stuff’s bullshit. Ignore all that. You don’t need that.
[00:48:12] Liam: This is what we need to focus on because we had a lot of imposter [00:48:15] syndrome. So then when you’ve got imposter syndrome, you feel like you need to [00:48:20] build everything perfectly. And he was able to point out parts where, as you grow [00:48:25] up, you know, that quite a lot of stuff, as you were saying, like, it might be fine to build a situation, have an [00:48:30] email come through and do it manually.
[00:48:31] Liam: Like, we were always thinking how to build everything automated and perfect [00:48:35] the first time. He’s like, nah, nah, nah. I was seeing him build web forms. And like, you can’t really, that’s not the way [00:48:40] you do it. You’ve got like 20 years of experience. It’s like, yeah, that’s the way I do it. And it’s the right way.
[00:48:44] Liam: And I’m like, [00:48:45] oh, it learned so much. So I do agree. Getting someone older than you. [00:48:50] In the in a core team can help you learn stuff. You didn’t even realize you needed to learn [00:48:55] But
[00:48:56] Alex: that means that you you
[00:48:58] Liam: want to listen that’s not always [00:49:00] the case with young people Well, there you go. There’s another tip for young founders.[00:49:05]
[00:49:05] Liam: Listen to your elders
[00:49:07] Alex: Get someone with experience there someone you can talk [00:49:10] to at some point I I usually for startups I call it the the big guy someone that [00:49:15] at some point they can call me and we can have a beer And and [00:49:20] because sometimes it’s like it’s not that they’re doing it wrong Just that they need to understand that this is is [00:49:25] it that hard?
[00:49:26] Thomas: Yeah,
[00:49:27] Alex: they’re having someone talk to with experience that went through [00:49:30] that before you when is it like are you entrepreneur? You’re losing your friends. [00:49:35] It’s not that you’re losing your friends Is that basically your area of interest is changing a [00:49:40] lot and the things that moves you are really a million Miles away [00:49:45] from whatever moves your friends
[00:49:46] Thomas: Yeah,
[00:49:47] Alex: so they will be speaking probably about their wives their kids [00:49:50] or or not even their jobs They don’t care that much about that but about football or whatever [00:49:55] and then you’re thinking about the next bull market because like there’s a new startup and [00:50:00] so And then you talk to them and it’s worrying because like you have so many things in common that it [00:50:05] gets crazy So having someone you can [00:50:10] speak about all of these things that went through before you
[00:50:13] Liam: Yeah Well, I [00:50:15] think, I think there were amazing tips.
[00:50:17] Liam: So, in terms of that segment, I [00:50:20] think there were some amazing tips there. Things that I’ve, has really helped me resonate with, even looking back to my career, things that [00:50:25] I’ve realized that I’ve learned those things and I haven’t realized that I’d even learned them. So that was really [00:50:30] fascinating. Thomas.
[00:50:32] Liam: What do you want to do about the next section? Yeah,
[00:50:34] Thomas: [00:50:35] let’s, like we, we have our, our brainstorms and I think it’s, I mean, some of this [00:50:40] stuff we already, spoke about Alex, like, you know, custom development [00:50:45] versus, leveraging existing solutions, but also evaluating blockchain technologies, I think [00:50:50] for our listeners, that might be.
[00:50:51] Thomas: A very interesting piece, like, you know, [00:50:55] signals on, on, from a builder perspective, when it’s something over is [00:51:00] overhyped or under hyped. And, we already talked a little bit about continuous learning, learning. So, you know, [00:51:05] keep on failing, failing upwards basically, but maybe we can, we can touch actually [00:51:10] upon,m, how, how do you evaluate, You know, [00:51:15] over like blockchain technology on where you want to build on is, [00:51:20] is like, do you have a specific format that you look, Oh, there’s a new chain coming out, like, you know, [00:51:25] every day.
[00:51:25] Thomas: Right. There’s some old school, like old school, [00:51:30] like change that I’ve been out there for a long time, like Algorand for instance, right? Like it’s been there for, [00:51:35] for a good long time. There’s also like a sui that’s, that’s been coming out. There’s a bunch of layer zeros. [00:51:40] There’s no Z case at the roll ups.
[00:51:41] Thomas: So. There is so much stuff coming out for [00:51:45] you as a builder. How do you evaluate that? How do you look at these technologies? Say like, Hey, this makes sense for [00:51:50] what I’m going to do. This doesn’t. Is that, has that a lot to do with, [00:51:55] they have already users, they have good documentation, they have an APK. Like how [00:52:00] do you evaluate that?
[00:52:01] Thomas: It’s Web3. Nobody has good documentation, I guess. [00:52:05] I was I was waiting for that one. Yes, it’s terrible.
[00:52:08] Alex: It’s always terrible. [00:52:10] Usually I I just thought I registered to BD or even like [00:52:15] marketing teams To evaluate the community they have, and [00:52:20] if they can help or not. And like, I tried to talk to other [00:52:25] teams building on top of that technology.
[00:52:27] Alex: Because then you get a lot of surprises there. No, [00:52:30] no. Basically, some of these even, Layer 1 and Layer 2, even some of them, they’re [00:52:35] really new. They act as a corporate, in the sense that basically they don’t help at all. If you have any [00:52:40] problem, nothing happens. So going to these like public channels where basically you have, [00:52:45] I want to, I want to be sure that if I have a problem, I can talk to the core guy that’s coding that.[00:52:50]
[00:52:50] Thomas: Yeah. And if we want to do
[00:52:52] Alex: anything, we want to have BD helping us out [00:52:55] or, you know, so for me, once again, like it’s not that much about technology. Yeah. I [00:53:00] think like, It’s like EBM. It’s really convenient because like there’s more, like there’s not [00:53:05] enough, blockchain developers, but at least like there’s enough developers that they know about like EBM [00:53:10] compatible kind of technology.
[00:53:11] Alex: But right now it’s EBM compatible. The rest, [00:53:15] whatever happens, it’s not that important. If it’s like a slower blocks or fastest block, I don’t care. [00:53:20] I’m going to do something that I call like, optimistic UX. Basically every time I send the [00:53:25] transaction, I just think that’s going to go through. So the message to the user is like, it went [00:53:30] perfect.
[00:53:30] Alex: Yeah. It went smoothly and I can handle that and then I can [00:53:35] retry and then I will take care of everything. So time block, it’s not that important. And, but, but yeah, [00:53:40] like the, the cost it’s important. And also now, like, for example, for us, like, [00:53:45] if we want to evolve in the future, you need to be sure that for example, I can, I can launch [00:53:50] an MVP with a set of smart contracts, but if we want to have our own L3 in the future and [00:53:55] for us, for example, it makes sense, I want to make sure that I can do that so that good technology that you [00:54:00] can scale,
[00:54:01] Thomas: but that’s, that’s not an easy.
[00:54:04] Thomas: An easy ask [00:54:05] for a new time of new first time founder. Right. They’re like, look, build your architecture out in the [00:54:10] most like modular, crazy way so that whatever happens, you’re like, there’s not [00:54:15] many people in this space that I know of that can do that. Right. And, and because it’s [00:54:20] really hard, it’s like, you know, you’re preparing for.
[00:54:23] Thomas: what you don’t know. [00:54:25] So build as modular as you can. Don’t trust any chain you’re building on because [00:54:30] that, that might change as they go. Generally, that will be better, but chains can go dead, right? [00:54:35] Like there’s not enough traction. That’s a really hard.
[00:54:39] Alex: [00:54:40] It is because you don’t know. That’s why I probably focus on business.
[00:54:44] Thomas: Yeah,
[00:54:44] Alex: [00:54:45] because business at least they will you will get enough investors Then you can sell to a cto and have some [00:54:50] with experience That yeah with that so at the beginning because you don’t know and there’s no way you [00:54:55] can like have all of that information
[00:54:57] Thomas: so No, I I tend to [00:55:00] agree. I think if you and that it always kind of goes back ’cause [00:55:05] we are of course, in this industry for a long time.
[00:55:06] Thomas: We have a big bias about technology around it. Most of our end [00:55:10] users don’t care. They really don’t care where this, none of,
[00:55:13] Alex: none of them.
[00:55:14] Thomas: Thomas, nobody [00:55:15] cares about none of them.
[00:55:15] Alex: No. What we, what we do needs to be perfect, but nobody cares. [00:55:20]
[00:55:20] Thomas: And I think that’s, that’s an important piece. But it needs to work.
[00:55:23] Thomas: And it’s like we always, [00:55:25] recently have been, been comparing it to the cloud, right? Like, you know, Azure and, and [00:55:30] AWS I’m like, do you care where your data is? Do you care how the cloud works? No, no, I don’t care how [00:55:35] the cloud works, but it works. Right. It works. Okay. That’s great. So now if you’re going to advertise [00:55:40] your new platform, new, whatever, you’re going to say, yeah, you know, and we’re [00:55:45] using AWS, like, do you think people are going to buy that?
[00:55:47] Thomas: Like don’t even care. They really don’t [00:55:50] care. They care that it works and they care that it will stay working and that it’s secure and it’s safe and it [00:55:55] will get better and better. So that’s an important thing, but they don’t care about what technology you use in the back [00:56:00] end. But
[00:56:00] Alex: then with the right CTO, you know that you’re going to start with [00:56:05] AWS and it’s going to be cheap, but then in time, if you need to grow a lot, that’s going to be [00:56:10] really crazy expensive.
[00:56:10] Alex: So you need that kind of experience. That’s why like first, like [00:56:15] build something you can launch the business anywhere. Nobody cares if it’s modular enough, you’re going to choose later [00:56:20] and then get a proper CTO to help you with that.
[00:56:23] Thomas: So kids, it’s less [00:56:25] about technology. It’s more about business.
[00:56:28] Alex: It’s about money.
[00:56:28] Alex: You need money to do everything. [00:56:30] So you need people. To give you time or money.
[00:56:33] Thomas: I, I fully agree. [00:56:35] Liam, you have anything to add here? No, uh absolutely. Fantastic. [00:56:40] It’s just like, it, it, it’s interesting, Alex, because then you and I have spoken about [00:56:45] this so many times last year in, in East Denver as well, where there’s so much technology, so much noise [00:56:50] out there.
[00:56:50] Thomas: And it’s really, really hard to distinguish it if you’re not in this [00:56:55] industry or in development for at least a while, right? Like you’ll, you’ll just move [00:57:00] with the waves otherwise. And I think that like, you’re one of the people that I always really appreciate on your [00:57:05] opinion on this, because You’ve generally always said like, well, I call bullshit on probably [00:57:10] almost everything.
[00:57:10] Thomas: And that’s, I think that’s a really good perspective because I think [00:57:15] not enough people do this, right? Like there’s just too much echoing going on. It’s like, no, but this new [00:57:20] technology piece, this new ZK rollup or this new. Yeah. Okay. But who’s going to use it. [00:57:25] Right. And who cares who really cares about this technology?
[00:57:28] Alex: But think about that, like new [00:57:30] technology, you know, ZK rollups. They’re amazing. The thing is like the guys [00:57:35] that they started with optimistic relapse they launched earlier They have technology that [00:57:40] works. Yeah, and now that they know eventually they’re gonna make great 2gk [00:57:45] relapse But they already have the market.
[00:57:47] Alex: They just like did the business side. So now [00:57:50] they have like for example arbitral really huge community. A lot of people building on top of that. Nobody cares if it’s [00:57:55] optimistic relapse or ZK relapse. Yeah. And I do believe ZK relapse is a better technology, but at the [00:58:00] end of the day, this is about the business.
[00:58:03] Thomas: Sometimes it’s not the best technology that wins, [00:58:05] but the biggest adoption, right?
[00:58:06] Alex: Always. No, no. Sometimes I think that that’s always the case. So, [00:58:10] but if you see that right now, it is like optimism. Yeah. Arbitr all of them, they’re [00:58:15] doing really great better than most of the ZKuberLab technologies.
[00:58:18] Alex: Because like, if you try to code, I [00:58:20] tried with StartNet, Aleo, and I love those technologies, by the way. They’re really good. They’re, they’re [00:58:25] some of the best pieces of tech I’ve, I’ve ever seen. But of course you need to understand Cairo. [00:58:30] So basically coding in Cairo, it’s fun. Or, or coding with [00:58:35] Leo, even they’re, they’re really good languages, but there’s so many things you need to learn before, before doing that.[00:58:40]
[00:58:40] Alex: So focusing on the business side, I think that’s what [00:58:45] makes a lot of sense basically right now.
[00:58:48] Thomas: That’s, probably [00:58:50] the best, the best advice that is being like, it’s consistently by the way, [00:58:55] being given throughout, I think all the episodes that we’ve been shooting over the last two, three months, people always say [00:59:00] like technology is great, make sure it works, focus on the business, make sure you get your end use, make sure it [00:59:05] makes sense, you know, retain your users, like build features that make sense.
[00:59:09] Thomas: And now [00:59:10] don’t build stuff that you think is great. Might be great back test it [00:59:15] back test the hell out of it because if you don’t
[00:59:18] Alex: Someone with experience probably me [00:59:20] me myself as over engineered so many times in my life But and you think [00:59:25] about it is like the amount of money I spent on salaries or whatever [00:59:30] That basically on things nobody used.
[00:59:32] Alex: Yeah, it’s great [00:59:35] It’s crazy. So just because I over engineered I did like An amazing [00:59:40] technology that could handle like millions of petitions and I had five so [00:59:45] You
[00:59:45] Thomas: Yeah, this is, this is an issue that we’ve seen, consistently in, [00:59:50] in, You know, with intersect as well. And before that there are previous companies, people [00:59:55] come in and they have like these crazy cool ideas and they’re, they’re very cool.
[00:59:58] Thomas: They’re, they’re really leveraging [01:00:00] interesting strategies and customer attention and everything like that. It’s like, that’s great. If you want to build an MVP, [01:00:05] that’s also great. And we have these 20 happy paths of users. I’m like, [01:00:10] Whoa, why, why 20? It’s like, no, no, because without the [01:00:15] other 18, it’s not a full product.
[01:00:16] Thomas: It’s like, no, that’s, you know, we, you got to refine your, your, your [01:00:20] happy paths, like what’s on the top three, these five, no, what is the top three? These, these [01:00:25] four, no, what is the top three? And it’s really hard. If you [01:00:30] can’t get there, because like, you think all your stuff is [01:00:35] great. You’re doing something wrong.
[01:00:36] Thomas: And we’ve seen people thrown away money at that. Don’t do this. [01:00:40] Just launch, just get your shit out of the door, backtest it. If it doesn’t work, we’ll add something new [01:00:45] to it, but make sure you get that market feedback because if you’re not, you know, you [01:00:50] just spent a ton of money on nothing.
[01:00:52] Alex: That’s Thomas, probably the worst, like the most [01:00:55] difficult thing to do.
[01:00:55] Alex: I mean, imagine like a pizza deck. I need to explain my, my, my [01:01:00] technology and I have one hour. I will do a great job.
[01:01:03] Thomas: Yeah.
[01:01:04] Alex: And then I have [01:01:05] 30 minutes. Okay. It’s not going to be that easy, but I can’t explain my technology in 30 minutes, but then suddenly I have two minutes. [01:01:10]
[01:01:12] Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:01:13] Alex: And then. [01:01:15] I cannot explain everything.
[01:01:16] Alex: I just need to focus on it.
[01:01:17] Thomas: But obviously you need, you got to be very critical on what, [01:01:20] what comes in and what goes out and that, that again, I think falls back on experience, like understanding what is [01:01:25] important and, and then still test it out, like talk to people, just throw it out in the [01:01:30] wild and see if people are willing to pay money for it.
[01:01:33] Thomas: For instance, right? Like, [01:01:35] and once again, like we’ve seen people just coming with big budgets, like, you know, they raised [01:01:40] five plus million and they’re like, Oh yeah, our MVP is going to be a million plus. I’m like, I don’t think [01:01:45] that’s a good idea. No, but we really want to build it. It’s like, okay, well, you know, we’ll, we’ll advise you all the way, but [01:01:50] this is a really bad idea.
[01:01:51] Thomas: And then it turns out it’s not a good idea. Like [01:01:55] there’s, you know, yeah, you pivot, they pivot as they go. And that’s why they still survive. [01:02:00] But you know, you’ve, we’ve seen people and that, that goes for all. Places, I think all emerging tech [01:02:05] spaces that you, you, you spend too much money on building something great that doesn’t [01:02:10] get users.
[01:02:10] Thomas: So first spend
[01:02:14] Alex: [01:02:15] money on acquiring users. Yeah. Or go where the users are. That’s why, why, like when you [01:02:20] choose like which blockchain, talk to the users, look for the community. [01:02:25]
[01:02:25] Thomas: I absolutely agree. So, so Alex, [01:02:30] like, you know, you talk a lot about, you know, building stuff from scratch, custom [01:02:35] development.
[01:02:35] Thomas: Are there, are there solutions, like, are you leveraging existing solutions? [01:02:40] And, and how, how are you looking at those? Like, is that a calculated guess or [01:02:45] calculated risk that you’re taking? Or you say, well, you know, most of the things that we do [01:02:50] or that you should do should probably be custom.
[01:02:52] Alex: No, no. I tried to use as many [01:02:55] pre made things as possible at the beginning.
[01:02:58] Alex: And like, [01:03:00] and right now we are lucky because there’s so many tools and options we have, even like [01:03:05] most of the people, I, well, there’s a, we need to do a website then. Maybe not just try [01:03:10] with a telegram group
[01:03:12] Thomas: Yeah, very lean.
[01:03:14] Alex: Yeah, [01:03:15] and if it works with a telegram group then maybe do a an app for telegram and [01:03:20] then So keeping as simple as possible using everything that already [01:03:25] exists at the beginning for me makes a lot of sense Simplicity once again, like I think [01:03:30] one of the questions that we had like what’s one of the things that you would take with you Uh [01:03:35] everywhere if you want to start Minimalism.
[01:03:38] Thomas: Yeah.
[01:03:38] Alex: Being able to, because like, [01:03:40] once again, like simplifying, it’s always harder than just over explaining or engineering. That’s what people [01:03:45] with no experience do. Yeah. Because that’s the, the basic thing to do. [01:03:50] Building something, think it’s easy. Building something really that focuses on something and do, that’s [01:03:55] really hard because you need to know what you want to build.
[01:03:57] Thomas: Yep. Yeah, and it’s generally [01:04:00] a very small piece of an industry like a piece of a piece of a piece of an industry Yeah, we always [01:04:05]
[01:04:05] Alex: Really on every platform or everything until you get there
[01:04:09] Thomas: Yeah, [01:04:10] yeah, yeah. It’s like a KISS principle. I’ve not heard, heard it like very [01:04:15] recent lately, but you know, when we did engineering or we still do engineering, it’s always like KISS, right?
[01:04:19] Thomas: Keep it simple, [01:04:20] stupid. Like, that’s just, that’s where you go with it. It’s like, if you, if you can keep it simple, [01:04:25] you’re probably doing something wrong or you’re in such a complex industry that, you know, [01:04:30] simplicity doesn’t, doesn’t, Exists, but that doesn’t happen very often. Definitely [01:04:35] not in where we are.
[01:04:36] Thomas: Right. So the chopping process,
[01:04:38] Alex: chopping process, chop things [01:04:40] like whenever you have your ideas. For everything you add, at least take out two.
[01:04:44] Thomas: Yeah. It’s [01:04:45] interesting. We had, a while ago we had a client that wanted to build a bridge. [01:04:50] I forgot, I think it was Solana Ethereum or it was something. No, no, it was not.
[01:04:53] Thomas: That was [01:04:55] something, pretty exotic. And we were looking at layer zero to, to [01:05:00] use and, fireflies from, from, hyperledger. [01:05:05] And they both fulfilled about 80 percent of the, of the requirements. But the other 20 percent needed [01:05:10] to be custom, but we couldn’t build on top of what they, what, what, but currently Firefly’s and, [01:05:15] layer zero, expect.
[01:05:17] Thomas: And it was basically, we went back to [01:05:20] them and like, look, we either, this is what the cost is going to be. If it’s, if it’s, [01:05:25] if it’s custom development and it’s a lot because it’s a bridge and it sucks and security [01:05:30] and, you know, or we’re going to go with this, which is about 80 percent of your requirements.[01:05:35]
[01:05:35] Thomas: And it’s up to you. And in the end, through different, business circumstances, they decided [01:05:40] not to build it at all. But they said like, well, about, we’re [01:05:45] thinking about the 80 percent solution. I said, well, if I can give you an advice, do it like, you [01:05:50] know, if, if, if that custom development is needed, let’s say in a year, you’ll probably met made so many [01:05:55] fees and so much money off that bridge, you can build that custom piece, but don’t, don’t build something [01:06:00] that’s incredibly expensive.
[01:06:01] Thomas: And you don’t like. If you don’t have enough users to, [01:06:05] to bring that money back. And luckily they understood that, but that’s not often the [01:06:10] case, right? Like it’s very often like, yeah, but we’re going to build a custom bridge. I’m like, Oh, [01:06:15] please don’t.
[01:06:17] Alex: They get really in love with their ideas. [01:06:20]
[01:06:20] Thomas: Yeah.
[01:06:21] Alex: That happens to me many times, by the way.
[01:06:23] Alex: That’s [01:06:25]
[01:06:25] Liam: a theme that I’ve kind of gathered quite a bit, I think, from my conversation [01:06:30] today is. Your, you try not to get emotional when it comes [01:06:35] to your code, the software, don’t get emotionally attached to the blockchain, [01:06:40] the language, that’s something that fits with your [01:06:45] ethos?
[01:06:45] Alex: Yeah, completely. It’s just code at the end of the day.
[01:06:49] Alex: Don’t take [01:06:50] yourself, yourselves, too seriously at the end of the day. [01:06:55] Whatever you do, probably it’s wrong. So you’re going to do it from scratch in a couple of months. So [01:07:00] don’t everyone do it because it’s fine. You’re going to change it anyway. Don’t
[01:07:02] Liam: get attached to it. So most [01:07:05] developers and CEOs, entrepreneurs, just people in business, they’re fanboys of something.
[01:07:09] Liam: Yeah. I feel like you’re [01:07:10] just, you’re one of those people that watches Like he watches football, but doesn’t really have a football team, just [01:07:15] loves football. Do you know what I mean? It’s like being a developer.
[01:07:17] Alex: No, no, not even that. I think football is [01:07:20] boring because like, I like doing sports, but then watching sports, I think it’s so boring that I never do that.
[01:07:24] Alex: As [01:07:25] an example,
[01:07:26] Liam: like my dad, my dad doesn’t support anyone, but he watches football out all [01:07:30] night. Like you’re the sort of a developer that’s like, I don’t care which blockchain, I don’t [01:07:35] care which code, whichever one is the right one. Whereas so many other people are like, no, I’m a JavaScript developer. [01:07:40] No, I’m an Ethereum developer.
[01:07:42] Liam: No, I’m a Bitcoin developer. It’s, you’re just seem [01:07:45] kind of technology and business agnostic. [01:07:50] Because probably
[01:07:51] Alex: it’s rock, so I’m fine with that. And yeah, yeah, but completely like, I [01:07:55] love Ethereum. It’s fine. I love Bitcoin. I’ve been using that Bitcoin and coding with Bitcoin scripts from the [01:08:00] beginning. So, but it’s just technology.
[01:08:02] Alex: At the end of the day, that’s not the [01:08:05] important thing.
[01:08:06] Liam: So you don’t let your passion interfere with the business.
[01:08:09] Alex: Yeah, [01:08:10] you, somebody told me it was like innovation is when you build something nobody did before and [01:08:15] somebody buys it or pays for it. If nobody pays for it, it’s just a piece of shit. [01:08:20] It can be a technology as [01:08:25] good as whatever technology you’re using.
[01:08:26] Alex: It doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. So using the best tool at the [01:08:30] moment makes a lot of sense. And building, it’s not about no, no in technology. [01:08:35] You know how to build things. In a way that they scale or that you can build on top of that. And there’s [01:08:40] so many things that you can think about that even like when you build technology you even think on a potential [01:08:45] ama, M& A that somebody buys you and then they have to do the due diligence for your software [01:08:50] So you already have that in mind Because you know, like they’re going to come, but then I have all of the set up.
[01:08:54] Alex: It’s [01:08:55] there. So it’s fine. Once again, it’s not about if it’s JavaScript or [01:09:00] Ethereum or true. I think nobody cares, honestly, only tech guys. We, we [01:09:05] care about that. But when you just like go
[01:09:07] Liam: out of our world, Do you ever think about grants when [01:09:10] you’re choosing technology? One thing you haven’t thought about, you say no one cares.
[01:09:14] Liam: That’s what really triggered [01:09:15] a thought and access as a process for a minute. Some people care in terms of. There may be [01:09:20] specific funding if you choose a specific technology
[01:09:23] Alex: Depends on on your funding [01:09:25] strategy, I guess in my case I I don’t care too much because [01:09:30] I think that’s like short term choosing just the technology because they give you a [01:09:35] grant of course like Can help sometimes but it doesn’t say anything about [01:09:40] the community they have So and even sometimes like I was [01:09:45] once working for a grant and I I just start playing with the technology and it was so bad [01:09:50] But it’s like I don’t want it’s gotta take me.
[01:09:52] Alex: It’s gotta be crazy. No. No, I don’t want that brand. [01:09:55]
[01:09:55] Thomas: So I I got something to add there liam because we we’ve been [01:10:00] Looking at grant programs, I work with grant programs, on and off. [01:10:05] It’s sometimes also the rules around the grant program that don’t make any sense. I’m not [01:10:10] gonna, you know, name any names here, but that there are grant programs out there that are [01:10:15] so restrictive.
[01:10:16] Thomas: So let’s say your Greenfield company just have at least your POC out and [01:10:20] they’re like, no, no, but you can’t pay a lawyer with your grant. It’s like, yeah, but you want, want me on your chain, right? I need to [01:10:25] have an LLC open. Yeah, but you can’t do it right now. So there’s a lot, there’s a lot of restrictions around grants as [01:10:30] well.
[01:10:31] Thomas: Because people really want to use, make, make sure that you [01:10:35] use their technology, but they don’t look at the larger perspective. It’s like, well, what else needs to [01:10:40] be done? The grant programs are very, Short term thing, but also [01:10:45] very fickle in my opinion. It’s, it’s, I, I, I like the theory and the idea behind [01:10:50] it.
[01:10:50] Thomas: I just don’t think it’s being executed for the benefit of the founder. It’s being executed [01:10:55] for the benefit of an ecosystem, in my opinion.
[01:10:57] Alex: And then I think like if brands were given more, [01:11:00] like on the growth or go to market, more on the marketing side, the big pay, you build [01:11:05] something on, on our technology.
[01:11:07] Alex: Like we have this blockchain, you build something on the blockchain, it works. [01:11:10] People is using that. And now we want to tell everybody about this. So we want to spend some money on [01:11:15] marketing to make sure that we have hackathons or we have like, whatever. Then probably makes sense because [01:11:20] they already are part of the community.
[01:11:23] Alex: So, but then [01:11:25] just like paying people to use your technology, if it [01:11:30] works sometimes, maybe it depends a lot, but.
[01:11:32] Thomas: Depends if your technology is easy to [01:11:35] use and fast to scale. Like I think that’s,
[01:11:38] Alex: that’s exactly what they said. Same with [01:11:40] hackathons. I’ve been to a lot of people that they just go to the hackathon to build something, make the prize, and then they.
[01:11:44] Alex: We’ll never, you [01:11:45] know,
[01:11:47] Liam: I suppose they also then have like, you talk about [01:11:50] community, you’ve got things like Gitcoin grants and quadratic funding, which is kind of all about exactly that, like [01:11:55] democratizing building and democratizing grant money. I think all those kind of open source [01:12:00] funding methods are really interesting.
[01:12:01] Liam: Fascinating.
[01:12:02] Alex: They, they, they are. But then Gitcoin, [01:12:05] I think like they have a really amazing approach to help community. So it’s, you [01:12:10] know, I think they have the right approach to, to grants, but they are [01:12:15] not like trying to build up a technology and get users for that technology. So they’re just like trying [01:12:20] to get interesting projects.
[01:12:23] Liam: So it’s kind of building on to your [01:12:25] idea is that it’s away from the sort of specific grants and then into say, one of [01:12:30] my favorite grant projects isn’t actually tied to anything. It’s kind of it’s the community, which is exactly what you’re [01:12:35] saying is the most important. So, anyone who is watching [01:12:40] very closely will realize that Alex has actually transported his laptop died ever so [01:12:45] slightly.
[01:12:45] Liam: So he’s come back on and we’re going to use that, transportation metaphor [01:12:50] to segue seamlessly into our next section, which is where imagine [01:12:55] Alex, you have been transported back to the beginning of your career, [01:13:00] without any of the knowledge or experience or personal [01:13:05] items or anything that you currently have.
[01:13:06] Liam: But you’re starting up again. You’re on a, so it’s the [01:13:10] Startup Desert Island Essentials is this section. What five things would you give [01:13:15] yourself? You can deliver them to yourselves now in the future, so you know you’ll get them in a little capsule when you [01:13:20] arrive. And it can be anything though. It can be even sort of esoteric things.
[01:13:24] Liam: So [01:13:25] it can be books, courses, even just concepts, ideas. [01:13:30] What would they be? What would you give your younger
[01:13:31] Alex: self? I think mostly if I could send me. [01:13:35] Concepts, even like if I could talk with me in the past, I would say like these [01:13:40] concepts, but first like minimalism being able to, [01:13:45] you know, once again, like being big things, it’s really easy compared to build really compact, [01:13:50] small, usable things.
[01:13:52] Alex: So minimalism is [01:13:55] one. And second you you mentioned that I think it’s quite important. It’s not [01:14:00] personal forget about that And because like life of an entrepreneur, it’s like it’s a [01:14:05] fucking roller coaster. It’s crazy So once you are up [01:14:10] then down and when you’re down really down then when you are really up and And if you if you [01:14:15] learn how to manipulate that curve in a way that it’s instead of being like that It’s like that [01:14:20] and you learn to handle that
[01:14:23] Liam: Just one of the [01:14:25] things that I didn’t mention earlier, I thought it was fascinating.
[01:14:26] Liam: And it’s not just about people think about the journey as being [01:14:30] like that. And like some, some people might have that concept. Well, you’re talking about being entrepreneur and [01:14:35] funding that your wealth and your funding as an entrepreneur will be like a [01:14:40] chart as well. You can lose money and still make money over the longterm.
[01:14:44] Liam: [01:14:45] So people might look at the Bitcoin chart and go, I’m not going to sell the dip, but there might be an entrepreneur that’s just lost a hundred thousand [01:14:50] pounds and thinking I’m going to give up now. Like you kind of really put that into perspective, I thought it was [01:14:55] fascinating of it’s just a dip. Buy the dip, build
[01:14:57] Alex: something new.
[01:14:58] Liam: Yeah.
[01:14:59] Alex: And [01:15:00] I used that experience at the end of the day, like every, every failure got you there. [01:15:05] And for every failure, like, I think like one of the most important thing that nobody’s speaking [01:15:10] about, usually it’s about connection. It’s like, Oh no, I can do it on my own from scratch, from zero [01:15:15] to like, if I can bring something to my back, it’s like people I know, [01:15:20] my connections make everything really faster because of course, like.[01:15:25]
[01:15:25] Alex: I have 48. I’ve been building for a long time. So I know a lot [01:15:30] of VCs and then I can call these VCs and they ask, what are you building, Alex? I’m building this. We love [01:15:35] that. We know you, we trust you. So the network of connections, [01:15:40]
[01:15:40] Thomas: it’s so important. I always hate this, this, this thing that people [01:15:45] say is like, you’re, you’re not worth this, you’re not, you’re not working.
[01:15:47] Thomas: You’re not worth, but it’s, it’s very true. [01:15:50] It’s just like knowing, knowing the right people to, yeah.
[01:15:53] Alex: Even like for the [01:15:55] rest, not funding, but your team, but you sit here or whatever. Like if you know people it’s easier. [01:16:00] We’ve got,
[01:16:00] Liam: we’ve
[01:16:01] Alex: got. Three there, we need two
[01:16:02] Liam: more.
[01:16:04] Alex: [01:16:05] Okay, so basically, there’s one of the concepts that it was so important [01:16:10] for me that I got it to toot to my arm probably.
[01:16:13] Alex: I don’t know if you see that so far. [01:16:15]
[01:16:16] Thomas: Punk punch, punkpreneur. [01:16:20] Punkpreneur. Nice.
[01:16:21] Alex: What’s a punkpreneur then? But basically it’s a concept, [01:16:25] it’s an idea. I even have t shirts for that by the way. A little [01:16:30] bit on, on the old punk idea of like fuck, fuck society. I mean, like we need to destroy [01:16:35] society at some point.
[01:16:35] Alex: I think it’s not perfect, far from perfect. We need to improve it. So what I mean, destroy, it’s like, we can [01:16:40] build it from scratch again. Forget about everything. You know, [01:16:45] it’s, you’re not that good. It’s fine. Have fun. [01:16:50] Have fun in the process. Even like when you’re up and down, be, be like this [01:16:55] crazy punk that just do things because it’s fun.[01:17:00]
[01:17:01] Alex: We just forget that. Thing like okay. We just [01:17:05] have one life once again, like Fuck society [01:17:10] Have fun And I think that’s probably one of the most important for me
[01:17:14] Liam: Uh reminds me [01:17:15] one of my favorite philosophers is albert camus and that’s very much a lot of his philosophy [01:17:20]
[01:17:20] Alex: Yeah uh I’ve been reading a lot about philosophy.
[01:17:24] Alex: I love that [01:17:25] Anyway, so we have four so the fifth I would just get [01:17:30] my laptop and start doing things You And don’t plan too much. So just [01:17:35] the laptop so I can start sending messages calling people getting start [01:17:40] doing Yeah going do it do it do it. Whatever like try [01:17:45] and part of the I always say like part of the partner is like Yes, [01:17:50] listen to you your elders, but not that much be crazy So if you do us [01:17:55] like every time you want to do anything, a lot of people will tell you not to do that It’s not it’s impossible.
[01:17:59] Alex: [01:18:00] Nobody has done that before Nobody, so once again, like big bank do [01:18:05] it anyway And I think it’s not for [01:18:10] the money. If you just do it for the money, just get a [01:18:15] job.
[01:18:16] Thomas: Yeah Yeah, yeah money money should never be the goal
[01:18:19] Alex: No, [01:18:20] if you if it’s for the money get a job do savings invest in like real [01:18:25] estate or whatever So there’s a lot of ways that in a safe secure And [01:18:30] not driving you crazy way.
[01:18:31] Alex: You can get money. This is not the best way to get [01:18:35] rich forget about that
[01:18:38] Thomas: A heart knock life. [01:18:40]
[01:18:40] Alex: That’s what I say probably if I’m on an island. And I’m, like, doing [01:18:45] well, probably. I will stay there. Fair, [01:18:50] fair. Why do? Like, I’m in the paradise. I have food. I have everything. I’m [01:18:55] fine. I have my contacts. I mean, I have my family with me.
[01:18:58] Alex: So, that’s fine.
[01:18:59] Liam: [01:19:00] Fantastic. Well, I think that was five of the more unique answers other than the [01:19:05] laptop. I really enjoyed those and I think of the listeners as well as well. So we’re [01:19:10] at the point of the show now where Alex, you’ve got dedicated space here to plug yourself, your [01:19:15] business, your products, what else you’d like to promote, feel free.
[01:19:18] Liam: The floor is [01:19:20] yours. Tell us about where you’d like people to go from here.
[01:19:24] Alex: [01:19:25] So, well, cool. Long story short, like a lot of years ago, like six [01:19:30] years, seven years ago, I started an association about blockchain. And we were working, like we were dealing with, [01:19:35] standards, learn a lot about the standardization process, working with ISO, you do this kind of [01:19:40] European commission, this kind of like, you know, big, organizations.
[01:19:43] Alex: And I started thinking that it [01:19:45] would be cool if standards were open source. So instead of like experts. [01:19:50] So as I say, like before, FAQ experts, if experts, instead of experts telling us [01:19:55] like how to build things, creating standards, that really complex, nobody cares, we should have a way [01:20:00] of like creating simple things, once again, like going back to the minimalism, creating simple things, simple schemas [01:20:05] that we could use to organize all of our data.
[01:20:07] Alex: So basically, one of the things I built was like context [01:20:10] protocol at the beginning was a framework to coordinate standards as public goods. So imagine like a [01:20:15] github for schemas that instead of creating standards, I don’t want to create standards. Anybody [01:20:20] can create a schemas and by adoption, these schemas, they become a standards.
[01:20:23] Alex: That [01:20:25] was the beginning, but just to do that, I wanted, like, I needed storage on what three I was using out of wave. [01:20:30] So I was doing a lot of crazy stuff. And of course, like, Oh, I can give a name. So I started the name service for that. [01:20:35] So you could have like names for your standards and it was cool. And at some point, everything that I [01:20:40] was building, it was going back in a That, that was like, not [01:20:45] just familiar, but something that I’ve been thinking on for the last 20 years, that it’s an old idea, it’s the semantic [01:20:50] web.
[01:20:50] Alex: This idea of, separating data, from presentation, from HTML, [01:20:55] and then put on a web, with the web 3 twist. Once again, like back that [01:21:00] you have full control on your data, that data is organized with documents under your domain, something really [01:21:05] simple. And that’s what we do. So basically we’re working on a lot of different [01:21:10] use cases and most of the use cases are web 2 not even web 3.
[01:21:14] Alex: So [01:21:15] imagine that by having this technology where every winemaker in the world They can have [01:21:20] like their own domain with the name of the wine and then they can organize all of the documents data [01:21:25] under that domain So all of the different kind of wines years sellers everything like all of the [01:21:30] information And, and they have full control on that.
[01:21:33] Alex: So the idea is that if [01:21:35] they change something there automatically, all of the resellers, websites, e commerce or whatever, they can take the information [01:21:40] from there because it follows this, this is schema, this is standard. So everybody knows [01:21:45] how to read that information. And that would result in a world where basically [01:21:50] any company, individual, anybody, instead of like [01:21:55] having all of their data on their whatever platform, like [01:22:00] LinkedIn, Google, whatever.
[01:22:01] Alex: Yeah. That basically you have all of your data. It’s not yours. They can get [01:22:05] back control on their data. It’s mine or my company. And then instead of going to [01:22:10] thousands of platforms to update everything, I just need to update my data, have full control. My keys, my data, [01:22:15] that’s the thing. And then having like automatic propagation of that data.[01:22:20]
[01:22:20] Alex: So I have full, full, full control. And then of course, like when we were building there, all of [01:22:25] the crazy thing with AI came and we found out that that was the perfect solution. So imagine [01:22:30] a way that we can train AI. As a community with all of the security so that’s [01:22:35] what we’re building. It’s called context context protocol You can look for it on internet Just need to [01:22:40] join there get a domain and then if you want to have a personalized domain talk to me We can like [01:22:45] get personalized domains and then just build I want people building stuff on top of that [01:22:50] That’s the only thing probably we’re gonna do grants then [01:22:55]
[01:22:56] Liam: I mean, you can play right there as well.
[01:22:57] Liam: Like, cause I mean, standards are something that [01:23:00] is a huge problem. I completely agree with that part. But universal [01:23:05] open standards then is kind of [01:23:10] create, if we were able to create the internet, recreate it with all of that, AI would be so much easier to [01:23:15] build. And so much easier to use and decide if you want to give [01:23:20] an AI access to train like what you’re the, the AI robots file, which parts [01:23:25] it can look at and which you can’t.
[01:23:26] Liam: Like training your data and making so that one of the things that I struggle the [01:23:30] most with LLMs is when I’m trying to get it to compare two different types of data that are very, [01:23:35] very different. It can really screw it up because a lot of these AIs, and they are becoming [01:23:40] more so, going to become agents where they actually want to run code.
[01:23:43] Liam: And if it’s [01:23:45] not properly formatted and unified, it’s got to convert it all first, and it takes forever, [01:23:50] but you give like an LLM, Two pieces of data that are formatted in the same [01:23:55] standards. You then you see how powerful it really is
[01:23:58] Alex: Exactly, or even if they have even [01:24:00] the standards because like I have the definition of both and it’s really yeah Yeah, as long as it knows the [01:24:05] standard.
[01:24:05] Alex: Yeah, you’re right And at the beginning like one of the I was advised with a couple of [01:24:10] games And when when when you speak about the standards like everybody thinks about biggest standards I guess [01:24:15] like date standards like payments identity. It’s kind of biggest standards at the moment I was [01:24:20] thinking about the stupid standard like a a gap And, [01:24:25] and it’s so simple because if, if I have an NFT, that’s a cap for a game, but that [01:24:30] then CAP hasn’t standard something that everybody recognizes, like even ai, they know, oh, this [01:24:35] is standard for a cap, then I can use that cap not just in my game.
[01:24:38] Alex: I can use it everywhere. [01:24:40] Yeah. I can inter operate that cap, that NFT with everything. So having real [01:24:45] interop interoperability in data just by having schemas definitions. And then [01:24:50] once again, like you can integrate with ai a lot of things, but. That was like how we started, like how we, [01:24:55] we do the semantic meaning of, of NFTs.
[01:24:57] Alex: But then the cool thing, because we want to be [01:25:00] this GI hub in top of Web3, we have, version control and that became the, oh, okay. Now we [01:25:05] can, we can do dynamic NFTs, but this NF t that’s evolving level two, level three of the [01:25:10] NFT, all of the metadata, it’s on change. So I can have like traceability and see back, okay, how my [01:25:15] NFT was originally, I never, I never lose my NFT have like the full trustability and [01:25:20] accountability on that NFT.
[01:25:22] Alex: So that’s the kind of things we’re working on right now. [01:25:25] And that’s one of the problems because there’s so many things we can do with this idea, with this [01:25:30] protocol. And I can’t wait to see what people build on top of that. I have a lot of ideas and probably the one [01:25:35] that will be bigger than anything.
[01:25:37] Alex: It’s not even going to be mine. It’s going to be some crazy guy. [01:25:40] Got new ideas, like I can do this. I know why not do it. Sure. [01:25:45] So,
[01:25:46] Thomas: so Alex, what’s, what’s the website for context? Where can people find? [01:25:50] Ctx.
[01:25:50] Alex: xiz. It’s, www. [01:25:55] ctx. xiz. We already have an SDK, so at the beginning we, we, we had the two [01:26:00] SDKs. One is like the full web experience.
[01:26:03] Alex: So you can handle your keys, [01:26:05] you can like pay for the gas on the blocks and everything. And then we have another one that basically you just have an API [01:26:10] key and then we do a counter abstraction. We do, we sponsor guys, we do everything so you [01:26:15] don’t have to. So, and everybody of course is using the API key.[01:26:20]
[01:26:20] Alex: Yeah,
[01:26:21] Thomas: easy. It’s, it’s, it’s always like, you know, easy, right? Like, yeah, just [01:26:25] what we talked about.
[01:26:25] Alex: Yeah. And it has like, okay, read and write.
[01:26:29] Thomas: Yeah, [01:26:30] yeah, yeah, exactly. Man, this was awesome. Like I really enjoyed this, [01:26:35] this hour and a half. I think it was great. I I’m a hundred percent sure our listeners and viewers are going to [01:26:40] get some nuggets out of it.
[01:26:41] Thomas: And hopefully, maybe even some other [01:26:45] people, some people will look at this and say like, shit. I’ve been thinking about this all wrong. And I [01:26:50] hope that it’s the case because I think we need more people on the bandwagon with Alex and with ourselves, [01:26:55] where we care a little bit less about technology and we care a little bit more about the business [01:27:00] and, how, how the business solves the problem.
[01:27:02] Thomas: Technology is just needs to work, bring it under [01:27:05] the hood. Alex, thank you so much for being here today with us. I had a lot of [01:27:10] fun, and this was our episode for what? The three with Alex, [01:27:15] Pugue. Today, please like and subscribe and repost our [01:27:20] content. We love to see our stuff coming back to the worldwide web because we believe that [01:27:25] what we bring here with our first season is very educational and we’ll add a lot of [01:27:30] value to whatever founder needs in order to [01:27:35] survive and thrive.
[01:27:35] Thomas: So thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. And have a great day. See you next week. [01:27:40] See you. Bye. Thank you [01:27:45] [01:27:50] guys.
