[00:00:00] Charlie: Welcome to our episode here today, talking about [00:00:05] strategies for selling your products and ensuring sustainable growth. Today, we have Alex Fazel, [00:00:10] welcome, the founding team member of, and chief of partnerships officer and [00:00:15] head of communications at Swissborg with a background in sales, sales training, and [00:00:20] coaching in effective communications.
[00:00:21] Charlie: TEDx. Alex is known for being the public face of [00:00:25] partnerships at Swissborg, the leading European community centric wealth management platform with over [00:00:30] 1 million end users. Alex, thanks for being with us here today.
[00:00:33] Alex: Thank you so much for having me on the show [00:00:35] gents.
[00:00:35] Thomas: 1 million users. That’s massive. Like, you know, like for everyone who is [00:00:40] not in web3, like getting a million active users in web3 is, is incredibly [00:00:45] hard.
[00:00:45] Thomas: And, you’ve, I think like at least Swissborg has probably been leading that, [00:00:50] that success, or at least that success story, specifically [00:00:55] when it comes to, you know, these kinds of companies. So Alex, how do [00:01:00] you, like, how did this start? Like, where, where also, I think, that got [00:01:05] your interest in, in wealth management at Web3?
[00:01:07] Thomas: Because, you know, there’s a lot of wealth in [00:01:10] Web3, how do you, how do you start this? And then, [00:01:15] Where, like, how do you pioneer this? Because you’re like Swissborg and I think all of you [00:01:20] guys are pioneers in space, in space, right?
[00:01:23] Alex: Yeah. So it’s a really good question. And, [00:01:25] it’s a very casual answer. I, I, I, I [00:01:30] remember it like perfectly.
[00:01:31] Alex: It’s so vivid. It’s one of those moments in life, even though [00:01:35] 44 this year. You know, I feel like your memory really captivates some specific [00:01:40] moments. And I was. Walking down the streets of Shimbashi, Tokyo, just finishing a [00:01:45] shift. I used to work as a consultant and I was helping different companies with corporate training and [00:01:50] stuff like that.
[00:01:50] Alex: And my brother tried to call me three times in a row. I was about to take the train, [00:01:55] the Yamanote line, which is the major train line that loops around Tokyo city. [00:02:00] And he just was really insisting. And I’m like, okay, I’m going to skip the train. I’m just going to listen [00:02:05] to the call. And. All of a sudden he, with just [00:02:10] unlimited passion and enthusiasm, he started throwing all these crazy words.
[00:02:14] Alex: I mean, Alex, [00:02:15] there’s a complete shift in the financial worlds. There’s something called the smart [00:02:20] contract, which is built by Ethereum and the entire economy is going to be built on chain. It’s going to be a [00:02:25] token economy and blah, blah, blah. And he was like really hitting me with so many words. I’m like, Cyrus, [00:02:30] calm down.
[00:02:30] Alex: First of all, I don’t have a background in finance, so I have absolutely no clue. What you’re talking [00:02:35] about and number two, like why all of a sudden? And he said, because I want to start a [00:02:40] company called Swiss Borg. I want you to be a part of it. Let me call you again and I’ll give you more [00:02:45] information on this.
[00:02:46] Alex: And the funny thing guys here, Thomas and Charles is if we fast [00:02:50] forward to May 2024, just last month, Larry Fink, the CEO of [00:02:55] BlackRock, who’s now planning on creating a challenger to the New York stock exchange. [00:03:00] Actually mentioned exactly what my brother told me on that call in [00:03:05] 2016 of November, which is the entire financial [00:03:10] industry will go on chain.
[00:03:12] Alex: So it’s crazy, man. It’s crazy how all [00:03:15] of a sudden this story, which was already cool back then. But as soon as I saw Larry Fink announced that [00:03:20] on, you know, the biggest financial media networks of the U S. Then I [00:03:25] realized, holy shmoly, what a visionary.
[00:03:28] Thomas: That’s, that’s incredibly wild. [00:03:30] And it’s, it’s funny that you’re saying this because we had a while ago, we had awkward lobster on the, on the [00:03:35] podcast, from core blockchain, the CEO of core blockchain, and, he works with his dad [00:03:40] and he said something similar.
[00:03:41] Thomas: His dad said 10 years ago, something very similar. As to, I think what your, [00:03:45] what your brother said, it’s like, no, this, this whole landscape or we’re currently see is completely gonna change. [00:03:50] And it takes, I guess, visionaries to see that, right? And then, [00:03:55] I don’t know, people like yourself to jump on the bandwagon and say like, Let’s do this, I guess.
[00:03:59] Alex: [00:04:00] Yeah, absolutely. And I’m going to be brutally honest, like I came in for the money. [00:04:05] So for the extrinsic motivation, but I’m sticking here for [00:04:10] intrinsic motivation, because I understand what it’s doing for the greater good. So all of those out there, if they came [00:04:15] in, because the original agenda was just to make a few bucks, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing, as [00:04:20] long as we understand why we’re here further down the line.
[00:04:22] Thomas: So was there a specific moment where you’re [00:04:25] just like, You realize like, Oh, this is not, I’m not here for the money anymore. I’m actually here [00:04:30] for something greater.
[00:04:31] Alex: Yeah. I mean, so our family has a [00:04:35] really bad legacy with the banks. And I’m not going to say no, we’re not criminals. We’ve never been [00:04:40] arrested or anything like that.
[00:04:41] Alex: Let me just make sure that it’s not that angle,
[00:04:43] Charlie: [00:04:45] but
[00:04:47] Alex: what I mean, a bad legacy is, well, first [00:04:50] of all, My brother and I are Swiss Iranian. So for those who don’t know much [00:04:55] about history in the Middle East, in 1978, there was a revolution where Iranians had to [00:05:00] flee and all of their land and bank accounts were fully [00:05:05] confiscated.
[00:05:06] Alex: So you didn’t have that unconfiscate ability that of owning your own [00:05:10] ledger and controlling and owning your financial assets. So that’s one story even [00:05:15] before we were born, and it really hit our family hard. Because you know, overnight guys, imagine you [00:05:20] having to leave your country for whatever reason, and the house that you bought, the land that you [00:05:25] bought, The bank accounts they’re using locally all gone.
[00:05:27] Alex: Imagine that overnight. Like that’s how [00:05:30] bad it is. So you can see already where we’re going with this story, right? And then further down the line [00:05:35] with the embargoes on Iran, when, you know, the U. S. president’s because of political, [00:05:40] you know, tension and, you know, kids, you know, fighting in a playground. What happens [00:05:45] is when you put someone, On this, on a list of sanctioned [00:05:50] countries, you’re, you’re cutting off the entire population from the financial grid.[00:05:55]
[00:05:55] Alex: And that is scary because all of a sudden, you know, during the pandemic, [00:06:00] when my dad, he lost his job, first of all, when there’s an embargo, because you also cut the, the abilities to do [00:06:05] business with some countries. And he has no money. And what Iranians would do are people who [00:06:10] live in these type of.
[00:06:11] Alex: Difficult situations is they rely on cash a lot. So [00:06:15] let’s say Thomas and Charles, you know, you have someone in, I don’t know, a company, a [00:06:20] country, sorry, that is affected by politics. You have to bring them physical cash. But then when you [00:06:25] travel, as you guys know, there’s a limit in terms of how much cash.
[00:06:28] Alex: So you would have to have someone [00:06:30] flying back and forth, maybe with a limit. Of $10,000 each time to [00:06:35] support that family member who’s cut off the financial grid. But all of a sudden with Bitcoin, a lot of [00:06:40] people, what they were doing is they could send money to the local Raffi Raffi, [00:06:45] which means local exchange in Farsi, and people could swap their Bitcoin, they could [00:06:50] swap their USDT, they could swap their Ethereum.
[00:06:52] Alex: Directly to the local two month, [00:06:55] which is the currency of Iran. So you see my point here. That’s a second, a [00:07:00] very clear story that connects directly to our family. So I didn’t get that immediately in the, [00:07:05] in the early days, but I think for everyone to find their own purpose, we really need to [00:07:10] connect on an emotional and spiritual level and intrinsic level, as I was saying earlier, rather than just.[00:07:15]
[00:07:15] Charlie: I mean, to, to dive in here, I, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with starting [00:07:20] out with trying to make a few bucks. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with [00:07:25] that. Once you’re like finding a way to the intrinsic, but starting with the extrinsic, I think that’s [00:07:30] how a lot of people, especially came in late to crypto.
[00:07:34] Charlie: And [00:07:35] the web3 technology started, right?
[00:07:38] Alex: 100%.
[00:07:38] Thomas: We’ve seen it in our [00:07:40] industry. Even I started like that. You know, we got contracted to build the layer [00:07:45] 0, a really long time ago, like seven years ago. And I was [00:07:50] like, oh yeah, you know, great. Get contracted. And then later on, you start like, you know, start looking into what the [00:07:55] vision actually is.
[00:07:55] Thomas: You start to realize like, yeah, shit. This actually has, has value. [00:08:00] And then, you know, I’m, I’m from the Netherlands and, you know, rich, white, [00:08:05] Western country. But to your point, I think your backstory, I think [00:08:10] is super powerful when you look at what Web3 and, and, and [00:08:15] decentralized finance can actually offer people that are being, you know, sanctioned for [00:08:20] whatever reason, because like, it’s very black and white.
[00:08:22] Thomas: You live in Iran, you don’t have access to anything. [00:08:25] And there might be, there might be bad players, there, but there’s also a lot of good [00:08:30] people and they also get hit by these embargoes. So, you know, Beautiful. I think that’s, [00:08:35] that’s a, that’s a very, it’s a very, I think, beautiful switch from, hey, [00:08:40] going, going for money to building something that’s a lot bigger than just [00:08:45] money.
[00:08:46] Thomas: So, you know, you guys started building this, of course, and [00:08:50] you as a founding team member. Like, can you tell us a little bit about some of the early challenges [00:08:55] and also the early wins, right? Because they’re equally important. You learn from [00:09:00] the early challenges, but it’s also very important to celebrate those early wins.
[00:09:03] Thomas: Like, can you [00:09:05] give us a little bit of insight on these things? On what went [00:09:10] on during the early days of Swissboard?
[00:09:12] Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the [00:09:15] core recipe and it kind of, this kind of blends off or bleeds off to some of [00:09:20] the later points we’re going to cover. But I think one of the critical moments is when [00:09:25] ICO, which was early 2017, my brother came to visit me in Tokyo and I was [00:09:30] walking down the streets and our other co founder Anthony Le Soimier, actually [00:09:35] Anthony, my brother, Cyrus, and I, we’ve known each other since high school.
[00:09:38] Alex: So we’ve known each other for a very, [00:09:40] very long time. I’ve always felt tremendous energy from this guy. We were never really close friends, [00:09:45] but it’s just, I don’t know if you guys can understand my feeling here, but there’s just some people you meet [00:09:50] in life. Some guys that you feel there’s good energy. You just want to be with that person without really being [00:09:55] able to.
[00:09:56] Alex: Frame it on a rational standpoint. And so there’s just always [00:10:00] really good energy, almost like destiny was putting us together. And when [00:10:05] I saw the dynamics of my brother and Anthony, both co founders together, [00:10:10] they were just so complimentary, very little ego because [00:10:15] ego is a very, very dangerous trait amongst [00:10:20] co founders, right?
[00:10:20] Alex: That could literally send a company to the ground, right? So there was, [00:10:25] they were very complimentary as in character and also [00:10:30] expertise. So Anthony is an engineer by academics. So [00:10:35] engineers, as you guys know, they’re very good at problem solving. They’re very good at processes, [00:10:40] procedures, you know, quality assurance.
[00:10:43] Alex: While my brother is very [00:10:45] result and more people oriented and more big picture. So more vision and, where we [00:10:50] want to go, how do we navigate the boat rather than, you know, building the right wood or using the right screws [00:10:55] for the boat. Right. Or the rights. Items to help it move [00:11:00] forward. So I just saw the dynamic from them, from a skill and personality standpoint.[00:11:05]
[00:11:05] Alex: And then I saw the dynamic dynamic in terms of responsibility. So Anthony, [00:11:10] because he’s almost without any ego at all, he was [00:11:15] completely okay. Not just on paper. But in terms of mindset to let [00:11:20] my brother be the decision maker, and that’s really tough guys, that decision making [00:11:25] responsibility, even on paper, ego always clashes.
[00:11:28] Alex: And I saw that [00:11:30] perfect synergy. And I thought, Oh my God. And I told my brother, you can ask him this. I told [00:11:35] him word for word, face to face. I said, Swiss works going to be successful. [00:11:40] I’m so confident about this. And he’s like, why? And I say, because of the dynamics you have with Anthony. [00:11:45] Like it’s, that’s everything guys.
[00:11:47] Alex: You know, it’s like the dynamics that [00:11:50] two co founders have is like the president with his, with his board of [00:11:55] advisors, it’s like parents and mother and father with their children, because [00:12:00] ultimately when you have those dynamics, it transcends, transcends through the [00:12:05] entire company via what we call a culture.
[00:12:07] Alex: So, yeah, that was absolutely the [00:12:10] biggest win for me. From the get go, which really brought me on board and I [00:12:15] left everything I was doing. I was trying to run two startups. I was coaching other startups to help, you know, [00:12:20] raise money. And I just, I just dropped everything. I said, Oh, this is, this is going to succeed.[00:12:25]
[00:12:25] Thomas: That’s also, you know, your brother, Anthony, that’s a lot of trust towards each [00:12:30] other. And obviously that, that a lot of time spent in high school, I think that helps, but then [00:12:35] still, you know, like being together for so long and then, build something together. Those are [00:12:40] two different things and then Having so little ego, that’s, you don’t hear that [00:12:45] often.
[00:12:45] Thomas: Definitely not in our space. And I can imagine that that’s from your perspective. Yeah. It’s [00:12:50] like, all right. Yeah. This makes sense. I mean, we’re going to make this successful. So [00:12:55] then to add, like, were there any, any challenges, around that as well? [00:13:00] Because, you know, great co founders, great, great product.
[00:13:02] Thomas: But I, I assume there were some pivots. There were [00:13:05] some places where you’re like, oh, you’re more outward facing [00:13:10] person, community wise as well. Yeah. Like, were there specific challenges that you, you walked into [00:13:15] early stage?
[00:13:16] Alex: Absolutely. So hiring is probably one of the [00:13:20] most complicated parts, right? Because even if you have, you know, an amazing mother, amazing father, [00:13:25] you may have a devious kid, right?
[00:13:27] Alex: So, [00:13:30] so long story short, and it’s going back quite, we’re circling [00:13:35] back to the intrinsic motivation, I think, rather than just having like job [00:13:40] applications or offers online, like you got to go out, right? You got to go out. And what they [00:13:45] did extremely well was before signing our CFO, Jeremy Beaumont, and [00:13:50] our CTO, Nicolas Raymond, they literally were dating them.
[00:13:53] Alex: For a long time. So they [00:13:55] already saw Nicola. They knew what he was building with Silicon Valley in terms of the technology. [00:14:00] He was very good in terms of his schooling, but also very good on the practical engineering side. [00:14:05] So they really wanted him. He was based in Geneva. And so they would actually go to [00:14:10] his office, invite him out for lunch, and they would try to steal his heart on an [00:14:15] intrinsic level.
[00:14:15] Alex: And not just here’s the salary, here’s the bonus and blah, blah, blah. So [00:14:20] it’s, I think the trade off guys, as you know, it’s, it’s a lot longer to hire people that way. [00:14:25] It takes more time, but I think they realized that the pillars of a [00:14:30] foundation need to be like rock solid. So they absolutely wanted him as a [00:14:35] CTO.
[00:14:35] Alex: They absolutely wanted Jeremy as a CFO, and our chief compliance officer, [00:14:40] Christophe as well. They all got them by the soul first and the heart and the mission. [00:14:45] And, you know, these guys, once again, you know, they can probably get twice [00:14:50] the salary they get with us by working for Google or any other big tech firm.
[00:14:54] Alex: Right. [00:14:55] But the mission drives them most right. What they do and have the freedom to [00:15:00] decide what technology they want to build and create a legacy for themselves in the longer run. So I think, [00:15:05] and if you do hire, by the way, guys, people that are not the right fit. In the early [00:15:10] stage, you got to cut fast, just cut, you cut the fat as fast as you can [00:15:15] trim that fat as fast as you can, because one bad apple really can create a [00:15:20] rotten batch.
[00:15:20] Alex: And that’s, I think that’s one of the, if you’re talking about problems, Thomas and [00:15:25] Charles, like the biggest problem is do not linger on bad apples, get them [00:15:30] out, ASAP. I know that’s friction, but that friction and the long [00:15:35] run is going to create A very strong emotional base for you [00:15:40] and really teach you how to become a business person.
[00:15:43] Alex: So, that’s probably [00:15:45] maybe we held on to some people who are not in it. For the vision and the mission and more in it [00:15:50] for just quick money. So, don’t forget to cut the fat.
[00:15:54] Thomas: [00:15:55] I, I absolutely agree. It’s, it’s probably the hardest thing to do. And I think also definitely early stage, [00:16:00] you, you want to believe that there’s a change, but in, in people, if they, if they’re [00:16:05] not able to help either with the mission or the vision or the speed of the [00:16:10] project, and it’s very often, I think, an easy piece, Where you say, okay, [00:16:15] well, we’ll give it three months.
[00:16:17] Thomas: Sure. If you’re a 500 people organization, you [00:16:20] have that overhead. Not a problem. If you’re with four people or 10 people, it makes a massive [00:16:25] impact. It makes a
[00:16:26] Alex: massive impact with four to 10 as exactly, exactly.
[00:16:29] Thomas: Look, I, I, [00:16:30] I love these anecdotes. If we could talk about it for a long time, I would just want to touch a little bit on, [00:16:35] on, on your TEDx background, because, you know, we spoke about that.
[00:16:39] Thomas: And it [00:16:40] fascinated me. It’s very, Unusualm, [00:16:45] to, to like, I’ve never met anyone that did presentation coaching for elite speakers in TEDx. [00:16:50] Like first, how did you get there? And, and secondly, [00:16:55] like, how did it hone your communication skills? Because, you know, [00:17:00] you obviously you gave a lot to these speakers, but what, what did it brought you?
[00:17:04] Alex: Yeah, [00:17:05] that’s a really good question. And you know, for me, it was by just pure honesty. It was pure [00:17:10] luck. So I didn’t find it myself. I think in life, you know, there are multiple ways to [00:17:15] discover what you’re good at. And a lot of people, I think do not spend enough time really [00:17:20] digging down deep and reflecting on what am I good at?
[00:17:23] Alex: What can I do [00:17:25] naturally? That other people need to work on or need to build up that particular [00:17:30] skill. And I, as a kid, you know, in up until maybe my [00:17:35] teenage years, I was super introverted. Like I was a terrible speaker. I was good at listening. [00:17:40] I love to listen to people. I’m just a person who by nature, by default, Love people.
[00:17:44] Alex: [00:17:45] So I love hearing stories. So asking questions was pretty good, I guess, even as, as a young [00:17:50] age, but I would enjoy listening more than speaking. And it was actually a friend of [00:17:55] mine who discovered this hidden talent. I don’t know. I don’t even know if it’s a talent, if I honed [00:18:00] it, I think it’s more for me.
[00:18:01] Alex: Nurture than nature. So it’s more just reading books and [00:18:05] practicing and implementing. And then over time you refine the art craft or the art [00:18:10] form. Right. But, a friend of mine, who is a co sales trainer [00:18:15] with me in Japan, he said, yo, dude, some of the points you share, it’s just, it’s just so [00:18:20] lively. You, you lit up, you light up the room and people feel you and they leave the room so motivated.[00:18:25]
[00:18:25] Alex: They want to come to another training and. The retention and stickiness of the corporate [00:18:30] modules and trainings I was doing in Tokyo was super high. When I would open up a workshop, it would fill [00:18:35] up within that company within a day or two where other companies would take, it would [00:18:40] take them probably like up to 10 to 14 days to fill up a single [00:18:45] workshop.
[00:18:45] Alex: So it, it was the fastest selling workshop within these [00:18:50] companies. And so he said, you should bring this out. You should share some of your enthusiasm and passion to, [00:18:55] to The TEDx group. And so I spoke at one of the TEDx Tokyo events. [00:19:00] And right after that, a lot of people who were actually speakers at the TEDx, they said, Hey, can you coach me?
[00:19:04] Alex: And I’m [00:19:05] like, really, why? Like, and, and so I really was lucky enough and fortunate [00:19:10] enough to discover this through, you know, my blind spots through [00:19:15] external parties and friends, which is, you know, which was pure luck.
[00:19:19] Thomas: Yeah. Well, I mean, [00:19:20] pure luck, but we had, our second guest, our first guest in the episode, [00:19:25] Tim O’Brieum, absolutely worth listening to.
[00:19:29] Thomas: Like, he, [00:19:30] he always described luck as like, you know, you have people that are lucky and people that don’t, but it’s also open your eyes for luck, [00:19:35] right? Like you could have said to your friends like, nah, nah, it’s not for me. You know, I, I don’t, I [00:19:40] don’t care. And then that, that would have not, not taken that luck.
[00:19:43] Thomas: So there’s also like [00:19:45] a, a shift of what you make personally to say like, okay, yeah, I’ll, [00:19:50] I’ll open myself up to this and see if it works. And then it turns out. You’re actually a lot better at the [00:19:55] UI. You’re like, Oh, really? You really want to be coached by me? Okay. [00:20:00] That sounds good. Really cool.
[00:20:03] Thomas: Once again, I think that that [00:20:05] luck is something probably can’t force, but you can at least open yourself up for it. I’d [00:20:10] love to go to like the, the, the 10 advice for startup. You already dropped a [00:20:15] couple of gems here and there. So I’m, I’m pretty excited to talk a little bit [00:20:20] more about, but your, your top 10, or at least like the top 10 that [00:20:25] we got from, from our, community and listeners.
[00:20:27] Thomas: And we’d love to hear your, your perspective [00:20:30] on it. Charlie, you want to, you want to start?
[00:20:32] Charlie: Absolutely. I think question one [00:20:35] is, is always with the strategy sides. What key factors should startup founders look for [00:20:40] in a potential partner to ensure alignment and the startup vision, [00:20:45] you know, grows and especially within the web three space in that context?
[00:20:49] Alex: Yeah, it’s a [00:20:50] really good point. You know, one exercise that I think is very, very useful gentlemen, [00:20:55] you know, once you’ve figured out, you know, the Lego pieces, right. Where, you know, this guy is the right Lego to [00:21:00] help us build the pillars to. What we think is a company that can scale. I think it’s [00:21:05] very important for founders to run a principle and values workshop, [00:21:10] you know, just, you know, really understand each is principles and values and really agreeing, [00:21:15] agreeing on the vision, agreeing on the mission statements.
[00:21:18] Alex: And really getting everyone to [00:21:20] participate, I think on a C level, because it’s very likely, right? It’s not guaranteed, I [00:21:25] guess, because you still need a meritocratic system. But I think it’s very important that [00:21:30] most of these early people who will probably end up on a C level, or maybe at least MD, right, [00:21:35] Managing Director, that they contribute to the principles and values, because that [00:21:40] refines the how you approach things.
[00:21:43] Alex: Rather than who you are and what can you bring [00:21:45] to the table? So I think that’s a really healthy practice that not many companies do and you know [00:21:50] when you have new people join The, the C suite, I think you can even [00:21:55] redo that exercise and activity. And what we would do is we would have, [00:22:00] different type of categorizations for principles and values.
[00:22:03] Alex: And you can use [00:22:05] different posted colors with different, you know, orange, pink, green, and just write a specific [00:22:10] thing that’s important to you when it comes to communications or whatever. You know, vertical, you’re discussing, [00:22:15] put them on a wall and try to group them into sections and then really try to bring out of, [00:22:20] out of that.
[00:22:20] Alex: What are the principles and values that can guide us all along so that if there [00:22:25] is conflict and the reason why I like principles and values guys is not just in terms of [00:22:30] alignment, but in terms of conflict resolution. Because there’s going to be conflict. There are going [00:22:35] to be arguments. Everyone thinks the company is beautiful and everyone’s happy.
[00:22:39] Alex: And yay, [00:22:40] sales are up. Boom. Legit success stories. Yeah. All of these success stories are [00:22:45] so opposite of what happens in real life. It’s always a [00:22:50] boiler room, right? It’s problem after problem after problem. Right. And so. [00:22:55] When you have those problems for conflict resolution, when you have principles and values and clear [00:23:00] guidelines, then there’s no more issue.
[00:23:03] Alex: You just look at those golden rules [00:23:05] based on those principles and values, and you have a clear cut answer without the [00:23:10] friction happening for too long. So I think that, I don’t, I don’t know what you guys think, but it’s a super. I think it’s [00:23:15] just like a simple practice on how to gain alignment and solve problems like personal or [00:23:20] human related problems.
[00:23:21] Thomas: I think it creates a baseline, right? Like, it’s just like, I think [00:23:25] strikes me here. It’s like in conflict, it’s easy to go overboard and go [00:23:30] crazy. But if you have that baseline of good principles and values, you always, you work from that. So [00:23:35] sometimes you, you, you go overboard and conflicts become big, but it’s like, okay, can we [00:23:40] go back to the principles and work from there?
[00:23:42] Thomas: If that’s possible. Great. You know, and, and I think. [00:23:45] To your point, doing a workshop in this direction, definitely with a [00:23:50] founding team or, you know, when, when a new C suite member joins, it allows [00:23:55] you. To I think easier come back to that, that base layer, [00:24:00] right? Like that, that, that baseline of like, Hey, but this is where we work from.
[00:24:03] Thomas: Are we still aligned on that? A
[00:24:04] Alex: hundred [00:24:05] percent, a hundred percent. Yeah.
[00:24:07] Charlie: Awesome. So question two, value [00:24:10] propositions. This is something I’ve personally studied quite a bit. How [00:24:15] can I, how can I effectively communicate the unique value potential, the [00:24:20] USP of my products in a partnership discussion? and maximize [00:24:25] engagement and interest.
[00:24:26] Alex: That is such an important question, Charles. I would love to [00:24:30] hear your thoughts and you Thomas as well, because, you know, before I joined Swissborg, I [00:24:35] was helping 500 startups. I was helping slush. You remember the Silicon Valley days where people were [00:24:40] raising a couple million dollars just with a white paper.
[00:24:42] Alex: Everyone thinks that’s a ICO phenomenon. Not at [00:24:45] all. That kicked off in San Francisco way before ICOs. Right. But, you know, [00:24:50] I, a lot of those white papers, a lot of the decks, and we also have a Ventures arm [00:24:55] and we also have a Launchpad right at Swissborg. So we see hundreds of them. And I can tell you [00:25:00] the most commonly forgotten or maybe undermined [00:25:05] component is the USP, the unique selling point or the core value prop.
[00:25:09] Alex: So I [00:25:10] think this is something that many startups still don’t know themselves, to be honest. I don’t know what you guys have [00:25:15] experienced so far.
[00:25:16] Thomas: Alwaysm, like, I mean, we’ve been [00:25:20] building. Web3 ventures in the last six years, I think. And [00:25:25] there’s less than a handful that I would say that I, within two sentences, like, [00:25:30] Oh, you know, you’re USB it’s it’s, but Facebook found it, you guys [00:25:35] found it.
[00:25:35] Thomas: So how do you, when you find it, that’s one thing, how do you [00:25:40] effectively communicate that?
[00:25:41] Alex: Can I share something with you guys real quick?
[00:25:43] Thomas: [00:25:45] Have
[00:25:48] Alex: you guys read this book? [00:25:50] Yeah,
[00:25:50] Thomas: I actually haven’t. No.
[00:25:52] Alex: Okay. So the reason why I’m sharing this [00:25:55] is because I think for USPs and core value proposition, I don’t think [00:26:00] there’s a better book than blue ocean strategy because blue ocean strategy, the whole concept [00:26:05] is instead of fighting in a red sea with all the sharks trying to rip off [00:26:10] the head of a tuna.
[00:26:11] Alex: All together and only catch a fin, only catch an eyeball. [00:26:15] Why don’t you just swim in your own blue waters where you’re the only shark or maybe only few sharks and you [00:26:20] can have tons of tuna to have a big, juicy, fat belly. Right? [00:26:25] Nice. And the framework is very simple, right? The [00:26:30] framework is. When you start your [00:26:35] own company, one of the biggest flaws that people need to remove.
[00:26:39] Alex: And I [00:26:40] promise you, because we are victim of the same problem is you want to change the [00:26:45] world, right? You’re, you’re going for the Silicon Valley concept of [00:26:50] if the vision is not too big enough, I won’t invest, which is absolute, [00:26:55] absolute bullshit. American BS, you know, to the max. [00:27:00] That’s the opposite of what you need to do.
[00:27:01] Alex: Obviously if you’re creating some sort of AI. That [00:27:05] is, you know, different from the current AIs that is specific to a specific industry [00:27:10] vertical. It’s much better to start off, specific and the framework, they [00:27:15] have a quadrant, right? And the quadrant is very simple. If you want a core [00:27:20] value proposition, you have to understand from a general standpoint that it’s not [00:27:25] about just Creating and raising the bar.
[00:27:29] Alex: You [00:27:30] also have trade offs because if you want to do something better or something [00:27:35] new, then you have to compromise on other things because [00:27:40] you can’t do everything. Well, you can’t be a jack of trades. You need to be an ace and a [00:27:45] particular technology, right? That’s helping the world of web three. And so [00:27:50] rather than just create and raise the bar, you You can [00:27:55] compromise by reducing and eliminating some points, and that’s the [00:28:00] ultimate framework.
[00:28:00] Alex: And usually what happens is, are you guys familiar with Le Cirque du Soleil? [00:28:05]
[00:28:05] Thomas: Yep. Yep. Yeah, yes.
[00:28:07] Alex: You’ve heard of Cirque du Soleil. Now, Cirque du Soleil is the [00:28:10] first case study in the book, and I’ll give you guys a concrete example of this hypothesis, [00:28:15] right? Just for you guys to know, like, the circus world, Cirque [00:28:20] was a Las Vegas phenomenon, right?
[00:28:22] Alex: Like Las Vegas was owning, you know, the [00:28:25] majority of shares for circus related acts, right? And so the [00:28:30] circus industry was a dying industry. Like, you know, the tickets weren’t [00:28:35] selling, the balance sheets weren’t looking good. It was about to die. So why is it [00:28:40] that the Cirque du Soleil who timed their circus And the worst times [00:28:45] has managed to scale and take over all the market share is because the Cirque du Soleil, [00:28:50] for example, on the eliminate and [00:28:55] reduce on the trade offs, they eliminated all the animals.
[00:28:58] Alex: So there’s no animals [00:29:00] involved. And why is that really good guys? Imagine how much money you’re spending to feed your [00:29:05] tigers every day with meat. That’s crazy overhead, right? That’s a lot of money, right? [00:29:10] And when they get sick, you have to bring them to the vet. I mean, that’s a lot of overhead, [00:29:15] right? In terms of costs.
[00:29:16] Alex: So they completely eliminated the animals from the circus model. And then [00:29:20] what did they reduce? They reduce the, the, the concept of, you [00:29:25] know, Having to get these trainers as well, obviously they’re trainers, but they’re more for human beings. What [00:29:30] did they create? They created a concept where there’s live music and live [00:29:35] singers.
[00:29:35] Alex: Right? So all of a sudden your blue ocean is not just for circus [00:29:40] people. You can attract people who go to the cinema. You can attract people to go watch concerts. [00:29:45] So once again, you’re creating a blue ocean by bringing other people. What would those people [00:29:50] do alternatively to circus? Maybe if you don’t like a circuit circus, maybe you’re a movie, [00:29:55] you know, fan, maybe you’re a sports fan, a sports fan, or [00:30:00] maybe you’re a concert fan.
[00:30:02] Alex: Right. So they brought all those elements together and [00:30:05] it’s just really well laid out. I think this concept of, you know, once again, innovating or creating, [00:30:10] Raising the bar, but not forgetting the trade offs to reduce and eliminate [00:30:15] so that your time is. Really spent efficiently and effectively to help a company [00:30:20] succeed will naturally bring you a unique value proposition.
[00:30:23] Alex: If that makes sense. Sorry for the very [00:30:25] long winded answer.
[00:30:26] Thomas: No, it’s it’s I, I tend to agree. I’m not sure [00:30:30] about you, Charlie, but, I think we see this very often in building software, right? People come with a [00:30:35] massive value proposition and then we say, okay, you know, it’s valid a POC. Go to market, like [00:30:40] test, test, test, test, test.
[00:30:40] Thomas: See if it’s right. And they come at a POC that has 20 happy files. [00:30:45] Give me your best one. And then you got a top five. And I know I need your best one because that’s what we’re going to build. [00:30:50] We’re not going to build anything else. We’re going to build your best value proposition. And it’s [00:30:55] super hard to define.
[00:30:56] Thomas: Well, we work a lot with technical founders, but also non technical [00:31:00] founders. Like what, what do I really bring to this world? But it’s really valuable. [00:31:05] And how do I create my own blue ocean? It’s, it’s hard. [00:31:10] There’s a reason why a lot of people fail because of that. Right.
[00:31:13] Alex: And I think, but which, based on what you said, Thomas, [00:31:15] that’s a really important example, because for instance, if you’re saying, Oh, I’m the new [00:31:20] Aveon base, right.
[00:31:21] Alex: I’ve said, that’s not a, that’s not a value proposition, bro, because Aave can go on base [00:31:25] tomorrow if they’ve already not decided to do so. So what if Aave goes on base? What are you going to do? [00:31:30] Or, you know, if they, if they say something like, Oh, I’m going to [00:31:35] challenge X, I’m going to create a decentralized social fi, and I’ll have, let’s say [00:31:40] the ability to swap coins.
[00:31:42] Alex: I’m like, I’m like, bro, like Elon is currently working [00:31:45] on that. He actually signed an exchange to offer the ability to do that. to buy bitcoin directly [00:31:50] through X. So you, I think it’s very important that people, really [00:31:55] understand, you know, how to make their own market. And obviously you can have a value prop that [00:32:00] gets killed overnight by a bigger player, but, it’s very important for, for you to [00:32:05] really refine that, as you said, and go all in on that particular.
[00:32:08] Alex: USB a hundred percent with [00:32:10] you.
[00:32:10] Thomas: I think that disruption, like people often say like, Oh yeah, we’re going to disrupt the space. [00:32:15] I always laugh a little bit. It’s like, it’s often that the, the niche of the niche of the niche that [00:32:20] disrupts something a lot bigger, but that they do it because they are so focused on their [00:32:25] value proposition.
[00:32:26] Thomas: That there’s like, okay, you know, that, that small piece that they [00:32:30] changed can has massive consequences for an entire industry. But if you look like, Hey, I am [00:32:35] going to change the industry. I always loved it in web three. It’s like, Oh, we’re the, the, the, the Ethereum killer. [00:32:40] Ah, yeah. Okay, great. Next please.
[00:32:43] Thomas: Like I, I, I, the, the amount of times I’ve [00:32:45] heard that’s okay. You built that for us. Like I can build you something similar. Yeah, sure. You want to spend, I don’t know [00:32:50] how much money with us. I think it’s a bad idea. Absolutely agree. [00:32:55] A hundred percent with you.
[00:32:59] Charlie: So three [00:33:00] partnership models, what partnership models have you found are most effective [00:33:05] in the early stages and why?
[00:33:08] Alex: That’s a really good [00:33:10] question. Charles and Thomas, because there is this. [00:33:15] Maybe misconceived belief that you [00:33:20] have to always use marketing agencies to grow traction, which is not necessarily the case, right? [00:33:25] I think the most important part for partnerships, if you want like organic [00:33:30] partnerships that will, you know, you can do community sharing, right?
[00:33:32] Alex: Co marketing, all that stuff. That’s a great way to [00:33:35] scale, by the way, if you’re low on budget. But, for me, the, the simple [00:33:40] model of creating good partnerships [00:33:45] is this is going to sound crazy. This is very unorthodox, by the way, my model [00:33:50] is more of a lose win model. You know how, you know, when you look at American [00:33:55] capitalistic models, like, Oh, crush the competition, never split the difference.
[00:33:59] Alex: Yeah. [00:34:00] America, you know, like those, those concepts are cool. I’m not saying win wins are bad. [00:34:05] But for me, when it came to partnerships, whether it be YouTubers that can [00:34:10] help create content for you for free, whether it be like some strategic partnerships where you [00:34:15] can do co marketing very often, I go in with a lose, [00:34:20] win mindset.
[00:34:22] Alex: And how I do that is I’m thinking, okay, how can I bring [00:34:25] value to Thomas and Charles, without expecting anything in return. [00:34:30] And I, I must say there is a drawback to this approach. Because if you’re looking for quick [00:34:35] KPIs, once again, it’s going to take longer because it’s like planting [00:34:40] seeds in a garden, in your farm.
[00:34:42] Alex: Some seeds won’t germ. That’s just the way [00:34:45] things work. But sometimes you may have a seed that pops up and crazy things [00:34:50] happen. I’ll give you guys a few examples. So for instance, For a [00:34:55] YouTuber, right? YouTubers, which by the way, we’ve signed over 160 [00:35:00] affiliate KOLs and we’ve generated over 30 million in net revenues through affiliate marketing, which [00:35:05] I built from scratch.
[00:35:06] Alex: So this is, this is not just hypothesis. I’m telling you guys [00:35:10] hard facts, but for YouTubers, I’ll give you some weird examples. We were in [00:35:15] Davos for the world economic forum. And as you know, the YouTubers are [00:35:20] very strong online, but quite weak in terms of a network [00:35:25] offline. Because they spend so much time in front of the screens, they don’t really spend so much time going [00:35:30] out for dinners, meeting key people.
[00:35:32] Alex: And I’ll always remember meeting Ivan on tech, [00:35:35] when he came to Davos, for the world economic for I believe [00:35:40] it was in 2020 Jan, just before COVID hit. And [00:35:45] he’s a star. I mean, 2020, like Ivan is the man. And I mean, this is [00:35:50] like, even before Coin Bureau became big, he was the man. Right. And, but I [00:35:55] realized that in Davos, he was.
[00:35:57] Alex: Almost a nobody besides the web people, a guy just [00:36:00] walking the streets and a nobody not in terms of his character, just in terms of popularity. [00:36:05] Let’s make sure I love him to death. But, and so what I realized is because we’re [00:36:10] Swiss and because we had a lot of local connections, we knew where the after parties were.
[00:36:14] Alex: We knew where the side [00:36:15] events were, where the villas were. And so you capture these people, you invite [00:36:20] them to parties, you invite them to events. What did it cost you? Absolutely [00:36:25] nothing, right? They had, they’d had time to wine and dine and all that kind of stuff. We [00:36:30] even went for kebabs at 3m, you know, after a party.
[00:36:33] Alex: And those are, those are things [00:36:35] where once again, and I had no agenda, obviously I knew that if we could work with Ivan and [00:36:40] the other people we’d met at the time, it was called the moon and other guys. I knew that it [00:36:45] could help, but I didn’t have an agenda. I went with a pure. Lose win as [00:36:50] in I bring you value with no expectations in return, which by the way, is great to always stay [00:36:55] optimistic.
[00:36:55] Alex: If you have no expectations, it’s one of the best ways to be an optimistic person. And [00:37:00] that works tremendously well for me guys that literally triggered and there’s, okay, can I [00:37:05] do one, one last example? This is the greatest example. Have you guys read the book, the five love [00:37:10] languages?
[00:37:11] Thomas: Yes.
[00:37:12] Alex: Okay. So this book, [00:37:15] you, this is going to sound crazy, but for partnerships, there’s no better [00:37:20] model.
[00:37:20] Alex: Like if I could give you everything I have on how I’ve managed to help scale Swiss Borg, [00:37:25] you can find that in one single book, which is the five love languages. And the [00:37:30] reason why I’m saying that is because. People have different love languages and love, love is [00:37:35] just a relationship, right? Even if we don’t kiss or, you know, make love, love, it can just [00:37:40] be respect between, you know, bromance between, you know, people who just respect each other.
[00:37:44] Alex: So what I [00:37:45] tell like our relationship managers, for partnerships, I say, listen, there are five [00:37:50] love languages. Number one is the physical one, which obviously we don’t want to kiss every single influencer [00:37:55] out there and smooch with them, but, but physical can also mean just [00:38:00] meaning. People in person, right?
[00:38:02] Alex: Not just always emails and video [00:38:05] calls. Go out for a beer, give him a hug, give him a handshake. Right? So there’s a physical [00:38:10] component. The second one is words of affirmation. Some people really care about [00:38:15] being praised. Oh, Thomas, your podcast is the best. Oh, Charles, you’re such a smart [00:38:20] interviewer. Right?
[00:38:21] Alex: The, the words of affirmation really, really help. The third one is [00:38:25] service. So let’s say, you know, you clean the house for your spouse. You do the [00:38:30] dishes, you book a call, you book a hotel, right? And in service, in the service side, you can do [00:38:35] a lot, right? You can, you know, when they’re going to fly to token 2049, [00:38:40] if you know about side events, just like I did, you can sign them up for a side event, right?
[00:38:44] Alex: And you can give [00:38:45] service to these people. There are people who love the fifth, fourth love language, which is gifts. [00:38:50] You know, you can send them hoodies, Swissborg merch. You can, I don’t know. You can give free [00:38:55] stuff for their community. Right. And then the fifth love language. Can you help me guys?
[00:38:59] Alex: [00:39:00] There’s one more quality time, quality time. So we have touch. [00:39:05] We have words of affirmation. We have service. We have [00:39:10] quality time and gifts, right? And quality time is like I did with Ivan and [00:39:15] Davos, we just went out together, had a great time, had a massive hangover the next day. And I [00:39:20] think, sorry guys, it’s so weird, and so unorthodox, but I think if you really look at [00:39:25] the five, five love languages and you understand the love language of the people that you’re working with and you [00:39:30] prioritize those, then you can do a killing in partnerships, if that makes sense.[00:39:35]
[00:39:36] Thomas: Yes. I, I had a healthcare career before I [00:39:40] started in tech and you know, you build your relationships with your patients. In this case, we have patients that [00:39:45] kind of rehab and back into society, long term relationships by exactly this, right? Like we [00:39:50] call it affective neutral. So you can show affection, but in a neutral way.[00:39:55]
[00:39:55] Thomas: And I think the most important pieces is that while it’s meant. It’s really well meant [00:40:00] and also it’s shared right like Advice by quality time. I always find a big [00:40:05] thing. Yeah, you get drunk together Yeah, get a hangover together, but you text each other the next morning. It’s like [00:40:10] Oh, man, i’m really hangover out of our music.
[00:40:12] Thomas: Oh, yeah, but it was a great time Yeah, it was a [00:40:15] great time and that that builds a long term relationship. It takes a long it’s a slow burn It’s a [00:40:20] really slow burn. It’s really slow but and and to your point like I You know i’m i’m doing this [00:40:25] for six years and the people that I collaborate with to this point Like some of them I know [00:40:30] for six years and it it didn’t start it Didn’t start always great, [00:40:35] but it’s, it’s currently great, right?
[00:40:37] Thomas: Because we spent so much time in, in figuring [00:40:40] these things out. And I think for, for partnership models, it’s perfect baseline [00:40:45] to, to start. But of course, as, as long as you mean it, right? I think that’s a really important piece. [00:40:50]
[00:40:50] Alex: Exactly. And as long as you have no time pressure, obviously it’s by the way, guys, I do believe in [00:40:55] sales.
[00:40:55] Alex: I do believe in tactical execution and delivery. And I’ve [00:41:00] always done a combination of both. But I just think, as you said, the slower it is, the more long term it [00:41:05] probably is. And also like for these, these love languages that I’ve given to these guys, and by the way, there are so [00:41:10] many examples. On the service, love language.
[00:41:12] Alex: You can also get them free speaking slots. At [00:41:15] events, at keynotes, right? Because a lot of them, they’re not in the loop. They’re so locked up in, [00:41:20] in their bubble and their YouTube world. Right? So there’s so many examples of, of [00:41:25] items. I would just recommend everyone out there to look at the five love languages and make yourself a list.[00:41:30]
[00:41:30] Alex: Of what is feasible in terms of in person, in terms of quality time, in terms of [00:41:35] presence, in terms of, but yeah, so, but I think what’s really cool about this in the long [00:41:40] run, Thomas, the core benefit is that you don’t even need to close people, [00:41:45] they will come and they will say, listen, I want to work with Swiss board.
[00:41:48] Alex: Can you send me over an example of [00:41:50] an agreement and I’ll get back to you. So Ivan. That Martini guy, Carl, the [00:41:55] moon, all these guys from the 2020 era, right? Like I didn’t have to close a single one of them. It [00:42:00] came from them because we had that trust. Right. And that was it.
[00:42:04] Thomas: I love the next [00:42:05] question on this, Charlie, because
[00:42:09] Charlie: this performance [00:42:10] metrics, what metrics or KPIs are most critical to track or import when managing [00:42:15] partnerships in the web three sector, I guess the first one we can knock off is.
[00:42:19] Charlie: Sales, you’d have [00:42:20] to close and then where would you take that from there?
[00:42:24] Alex: Yeah, [00:42:25] that’s a very, very good question. For, for sales, [00:42:30] right. For scaling a business development unit. What I would say is the [00:42:35] most important is to really understand the simple balance sheet, right? How much are [00:42:40] you paying your, your team?
[00:42:41] Alex: How much are you bringing back? And, you know, [00:42:45] scaling, by the way, guys, is something that I think 99 percent of the startups out there do not [00:42:50] understand as of today. I mean, there’s very, there’s most crypto companies don’t even have a business model, [00:42:55] right? If they didn’t have equity or token raises, they wouldn’t scale anyways.
[00:42:58] Alex: But, [00:43:00] just for the sake of keeping it simple today, just understand your balance sheet. [00:43:05] So how much am I, how much do I have in debt? How much do I have in terms of, [00:43:10] of, revenues being generated? What do I need to be ROI positive with this team? [00:43:15] And what do I need to hire some people? Because, you know, a lot of companies, when they [00:43:20] forecast their balance sheets, or if they’re doing some sort of [00:43:25] PNL projections, right, they’re going to keep the costs quite linear.[00:43:30]
[00:43:30] Alex: When it’s never like that, there’s always unexpected costs. Number one. So you always need a, [00:43:35] a blanket, you know, to, to be safe. And then you’ll need a goal to [00:43:40] figure out, okay, I’m paying this person, this senior business person, this salary, [00:43:45] maybe more junior, this salary. Maybe we want one more junior under this senior.
[00:43:49] Alex: [00:43:50] So how much do I need to make plus that blanket in order to scale the [00:43:55] actual, company? So, I’m really sorry if [00:44:00] this is very generic as a KPI model, but first I think it’s very [00:44:05] important to set the final goal first. So let’s say, you know, [00:44:10] this year we need to make a 1 million in net [00:44:15] profit because that 1 million will allow us to.
[00:44:18] Alex: Maybe build this [00:44:20] technology for affiliation to automate something. So this will go to technology. These, these revenues, [00:44:25] these revenues will go to one senior biz dev. And this, these revenues will go to a junior biz dev [00:44:30] in this particular region or language. So, you know, I think [00:44:35] one last comment on this all guys is, It’s important for [00:44:40] us guys in sales, other than the tactics, right?
[00:44:42] Alex: The tactical level, we can talk about that separately, [00:44:45] but it’s to really grow their business acumen. [00:44:50] And I think that business acumen is basic understanding of accounting. [00:44:55] Because already they’re thinking about the business side of things. And [00:45:00] giving them a longer term mindset. So as [00:45:05] in not just setting monthly KPIs, but how do we scale?
[00:45:08] Alex: So how do I [00:45:10] increase my KPIs on a monthly basis to reach the goal that I want to reach? Because I tell everyone [00:45:15] when they come in, Oh, as a junior, Oh, Alex, when can I be like head of business development? [00:45:20] I said, listen, the only way to do it is to show that you can scale the team. So it’s not [00:45:25] me to decide it’s your own work.
[00:45:26] Alex: You’re in control of everything. So if you can show me that you [00:45:30] understand how to, first of all, be ROI positive for yourself, [00:45:35] ROI positive for your junior. And then you can increase the revenues, increase your [00:45:40] KPIs progressively by keeping them realistic and smart goals as we always say, [00:45:45] and then scale accordingly, then you won’t even need my, my decision [00:45:50] or my validation for you to get promoted.
[00:45:52] Alex: Right. You’ll just naturally have, you know, [00:45:55] maybe two mid career biz dev under you. And then five junior. And then all of a [00:46:00] sudden it’s like, okay, this guy is no longer a business manager. He’s at a managing [00:46:05] director level. Does that make sense guys? Or not at all.
[00:46:07] Thomas: For me, it does make sense. Yeah, it’s right.
[00:46:09] Thomas: [00:46:10] It’s, it’s very straight forward, right? You, you, you hold the keys to your own castle.
[00:46:14] Alex: Exactly.
[00:46:14] Charlie: [00:46:15] Yeah. Mindful of time going to accelerate through these things. So you’re trying to rapid fire through [00:46:20] them. Scaling partnerships was another one as your startups grow. [00:46:25] How should your approach to partnerships evolve?
[00:46:28] Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I [00:46:30] really believe in, so scalability, I see it from multiple angles guys. Right. So I [00:46:35] see it, I see it as. You can increase revenues to grow a team. [00:46:40] You can increase revenues to grow your tech because sometimes people don’t want to grow their team. [00:46:45] Maybe their comfortable zone is around 40, 50 employees and not go [00:46:50] up to 250 like Swiss Borg, right?
[00:46:52] Alex: So understand your goals first. And what do you want to [00:46:55] scale? Do you want to scale your technology so that you can automate things more and just [00:47:00] be more efficient amongst your peers? Do you want to scale in the sense where [00:47:05] you reduce costs and expenses? So there, you see what I’m saying [00:47:10] here, guys, you can scale the technology, you can still scale the employees.
[00:47:13] Alex: But for everything you need [00:47:15] to scale revenues is what, what I’m trying to say when it comes to scaling. And [00:47:20] I think, one thing that I see people who scale extremely well, and this is from [00:47:25] many people I’ve observed is they’re so good at prioritizing time. Guys. [00:47:30] The way they prioritize time is crazy.
[00:47:32] Alex: Good, crazy. Good. I’ve [00:47:35] seen people like they barely do meetings, right? If there’s no very clear agenda, if [00:47:40] there’s no very clear goal, if one person key person is missing from the [00:47:45] meeting, he will cancel the entire meeting. So really understanding your [00:47:50] time. And really, once again, if you understand that, you know, risk [00:47:55] reward and long term scaling goals, and you keep that, as in a simple [00:48:00] question to yourself, what matters the most for my company to grow, [00:48:05] this matters or revenues.
[00:48:07] Alex: And this matters, maybe token price [00:48:10] action. And so for those reasons, if you have those goals, you will be able [00:48:15] to say no to some things. And I know it hurts and I know you won’t be the most [00:48:20] popular person in the world if you want to scale, but at the end of the day, that’s, [00:48:25] that’s a trade off, right? You may see, you may prioritize things differently.
[00:48:28] Alex: You may not be the, [00:48:30] the prince of popularity. At least you’ll be an incredible business [00:48:35] person.
[00:48:35] Charlie: You, you do have to prioritize and. Where you spend your time, like [00:48:40] actually Thomas and I had this conversation recently. It’s like, okay, so we’re, we’re [00:48:45] looking at costs for certain projects. And it’s like, well, I genuinely think you [00:48:50] just got to make more money, right?
[00:48:51] Charlie: That’s, that’s generally my move for these kinds of things. Rather [00:48:55] than like, how can I say, like, would I, would I spend two weeks trying to [00:49:00] save 500 quid? Not really. I’d much rather like [00:49:05] put my time into saying, okay, We, we need to make another 20. [00:49:10] And that’s, that’s generally how I prioritize when it looks to that.
[00:49:13] Charlie: It’s let’s look at the finance, let’s look at [00:49:15] what’s really happening. Let’s look at how this really affects the project. And, and [00:49:20] like, where do you prioritize time? I think it’s just such a key thing that, especially in [00:49:25] the entrepreneurial game, you fuck it up often because you get caught in the operations, [00:49:30] right?
[00:49:31] Charlie: You get caught in how something’s running when really you need to be working on the [00:49:35] business rather than an employee in it. A
[00:49:36] Alex: hundred percent. A hundred percent. I think. [00:49:40] And that’s why like, I think a good sales trainer or someone who kind of leads a [00:49:45] sales or business development team, which, which was me at Swiss work, right, is that, just getting [00:49:50] into that habit of getting the employees to look at the balance sheet, you know, and really, [00:49:55] you’re almost like transforming them into entrepreneurs in some ways.
[00:49:58] Alex: Right. And [00:50:00] it’s not to, to be an asshole, you know, it’s, it’s simply for them to [00:50:05] really see this as often as possible from a business standpoint and not just a product [00:50:10] standpoint or a service standpoint.
[00:50:13] Charlie: What strategy is going to [00:50:15] ensure long term engagement and mutual benefit in a partnership, particularly in the technology [00:50:20] driven markets like web3?
[00:50:22] Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So, well, first of all, I [00:50:25] think that, long term engagement from [00:50:30] the company standpoint, like employees, retaining employees, reducing churn, [00:50:35] all that kind of stuff that, that comes from the culture, a hundred percent and the culture, which is connected to [00:50:40] the purpose. And I think, you know, there, Especially in the crypto world, like we’re, we’re [00:50:45] all masochistic here in some ways.
[00:50:46] Alex: It’s such a painful, brutal, intense world. [00:50:50] Right? So we’re trying
[00:50:51] Charlie: to change the world and it wouldn’t hurt.
[00:50:54] Alex: You know, there’s [00:50:55] one meme. I’m sorry, guys, this is so X rated, but let me just say it. There’s one meme that I [00:51:00] love that makes me giggle. Even though I’ve read it a few times. Thousand times it’s like, [00:51:05] I don’t need sex because crypto fucks me every day.[00:51:10]
[00:51:11] Thomas: It’s, it’s the thing that we should probably show to new founders [00:51:15] or new entrepreneurs in this space. It’s like, are you ready for this?
[00:51:19] Alex: I’m not sure [00:51:20] if this should go out, but anyways, it’s okay. These days, you know, the community is different from the corporate clients. [00:51:25] But it’s so true. And I lost track of the question.
[00:51:29] Alex: Sorry. The [00:51:30] question was, oh, in terms of
[00:51:31] Charlie: managing long-term engagement, long engage relationships,
[00:51:34] Alex: yeah. [00:51:35] So the culture is definitely for employees.
[00:51:38] Charlie: Yeah.
[00:51:39] Alex: Long-term [00:51:40] relationships with companies. I would love to rely on the, the five love [00:51:45] languages you have to meet physically. Like there’s something about remote work that just doesn’t work.
[00:51:49] Alex: We have all [00:51:50] the data guys, like of people who are so remote, wouldn’t come to. [00:51:55] Any of our corporate, you know, outings [00:52:00] and, you know, the, the events that we do to, you know, for bond building and all that kind of stuff, the corporate [00:52:05] activities, the, what are they called again? The, when you go out with a [00:52:10] company once a year, I forgot the term.
[00:52:13] Thomas: We call it a, a [00:52:15] heyday, but
[00:52:16] Alex: yeah, retreat,
[00:52:17] Thomas: retreat,
[00:52:18] Alex: there you go. [00:52:20] So, you know, we have the data guys, and I can tell you very, very easily that this sticks in, [00:52:25] this kind of connects both the love languages and relationships in general, whether it’s within the [00:52:30] company and, or a client or a partner. Not having a [00:52:35] physical connection is really bad.
[00:52:37] Alex: Like I can tell you the drop off from the engineer [00:52:40] side who are working completely remote and never come to HQ, never come [00:52:45] to the retreats. They’re going to drop off a lot faster. The churn rate is a lot higher. There’s something [00:52:50] we’re human beings, right? We’re not robots. So you need that physical interaction.
[00:52:54] Alex: You need to [00:52:55] meet with each other. I think some of the best, best times when it came to innovation were [00:53:00] times where we locked ourselves up, you know, for a week or two with all of the C’s. Right. And we did [00:53:05] workshops every day. We went, you know, we did some, like, you know, [00:53:10] walking and trekking together and, you know, doing campfires.
[00:53:13] Alex: Right. We’re human [00:53:15] beings at the end of the day. And it’s the same thing with the corporate clients. Once again, even if you send lots of [00:53:20] gifts. Even if you do some good servicing, that’s great. [00:53:25] Even if you, you know, you, you still need that quality time together. You still need that in [00:53:30] person thing.
[00:53:31] Alex: So I think that’s the key for everything. And, you know, a lot of [00:53:35] our really big KOLs that we lost in terms of affiliation should stop promoting [00:53:40] us. It just happens to be those that we hadn’t met them physically for [00:53:45] over a year and a half, right? The product hasn’t changed. We have even more features than before.[00:53:50]
[00:53:50] Alex: But it just fades out. If that makes sense, just like a long distance relationship, right? When you’re dating someone. [00:53:55]
[00:53:55] Charlie: Yeah, no, it’s very true. I mean, the next question is risk management. What common [00:54:00] pitfalls should startups avoid when entering and managing a partnership? I guess not meeting in [00:54:05] person is probably
[00:54:05] Thomas: the
[00:54:07] Charlie: thing with these questions.
[00:54:08] Charlie: They kind of, they kind of answer [00:54:10] each other, which is great, but are there any other key pieces of risk management when it comes to [00:54:15] clients, partnerships, Or, or, or general partnerships between [00:54:20] companies that you would advise.
[00:54:22] Alex: Yeah, I mean, I, I think that there’s [00:54:25] something that’s really important, which is [00:54:30] expectations.
[00:54:31] Alex: Right. Like really making sure that you fully [00:54:35] understand the expectations and the expectations. I think they need to be smart goals as well. So [00:54:40] specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, timely. So, and [00:54:45] that’s why, unfortunately it’s always good to have expectations. A document like a, and a [00:54:50] written agreement for all types of relationships.
[00:54:52] Alex: Even if it’s cross [00:54:55] promotional or marketing, it’s just, it’s, it’s better to have that, you know, [00:55:00] binding agreement doesn’t have to be a legal contract, but some sort of, you know, [00:55:05] MOU, LOI, simple agreement where both parties sign. [00:55:10] So I think expectations is key guys, because if there’s one thing that [00:55:15] wasn’t mentioned in that agreement.
[00:55:17] Alex: And that, that could kill relationship in itself, if that makes [00:55:20] sense. And I’ll give you, I’ll give you just one example, right? Like, so there’s one, [00:55:25] ventures company VC where we helped them. We both co invested in a project [00:55:30] and we brought them some very high quality content creators. And we [00:55:35] found out later, even though we’d verbally agreed, you know, through conversations that we didn’t want them to try [00:55:40] to pouch.
[00:55:41] Alex: Our, our network, because we work with them [00:55:45] constantly. Right. And we create strategies for other projects. And a lot of people were circumventing us [00:55:50] trying to steal them from us. And that unfortunately was not, there was no agreement in place. [00:55:55] And that, that really can, that, that’s something that, all of a sudden, if you don’t have a physical [00:56:00] agreement, the relationship goes south, right?
[00:56:03] Charlie: Feedback loops. So this is interesting. [00:56:05] Feedback loops, growth loops. It depends what you want to really call them. How can you [00:56:10] establish effective feedback loops of partners to continuously continually improve the product [00:56:15] and partnership experience?
[00:56:16] Alex: Yeah. So the, this is again, going to the mindset.
[00:56:19] Alex: Sorry, guys, I’m [00:56:20] going a lot back to the mindset because I think that’s the core That’s the catalyst of everything. [00:56:25] It’s everything starts in the mind. And so in terms of [00:56:30] mindset, I think one thing that’s really important, guys, is an often [00:56:35] overlooked is, is everyone okay at receiving feedback or do, [00:56:40] will they take it personally?
[00:56:41] Alex: Will they get hurt? Do they understand that feedback is not [00:56:45] challenging you as a person, but challenging an idea that is not necessarily you, it’s [00:56:50] just a thought. So I think if you train people to understand [00:56:55] that feedback will only make you better. But also train people [00:57:00] to feel comfortable giving the feedback, right?
[00:57:02] Alex: That’s also a big problem, especially in, you [00:57:05] know, Switzerland is, I think it’s a less confrontational culture. [00:57:10] Netherlands, I think Netherlands is a little more direct, right? But Swiss is very, [00:57:15]
[00:57:15] Thomas: we love to be direct,
[00:57:16] Alex: love to be direct, which I love as well. But you know, Switzerland is [00:57:20] very indirect guys.
[00:57:20] Alex: So if you’re already indirect in your communication style and [00:57:25] non confrontational, Feedback is already an issue because number one, people are afraid to [00:57:30] share. Number two, people get hurt when it’s shared. So I w I [00:57:35] would just really hone in and creating a culture of feedback where people starve for [00:57:40] feedback.
[00:57:40] Alex: They’re like, Oh, I want feedback from all levels. Not just from my, [00:57:45] my, my superiors, from my subordinates, from people working with me, from the end [00:57:50] user, you know, I want feedback from everyone and, and just see it as, you know. You building your own [00:57:55] armor, right? So one to one division, if you, or if you’re a gladiator or if you’re [00:58:00] some sort of like soldier, right, the first feedback is the helmet.
[00:58:03] Alex: The second is the [00:58:05] bulletproof vest. The third is, you know, like, I don’t know, cool pants. [00:58:10]
[00:58:10] Thomas: I always add to these kinds of things. It’s like. The [00:58:15] loops are very important and, you know, getting and giving feedback is very important, but [00:58:20] also teaching how to receive and how to give, because again, in [00:58:25] the Netherlands, it’s very usual.
[00:58:26] Thomas: You just, you blur it out things and people are like, all right. If I do that [00:58:30] to Charlie, Charlie will probably be very offended, right? Because like, from a British perspective, [00:58:35] he’d probably just be very rude. I have actually a very good example of one of the [00:58:40] founders that Charlie works with that I met in Denver last year.
[00:58:44] Thomas: And I was [00:58:45] so tired and I was hanging out with his girlfriend and, you know, doing the side events and I met this guy and he’s like, Oh, this [00:58:50] is my, this is my boyfriend. I was like, Hey man, nice to meet you, dude. I’m super tired. I didn’t [00:58:55] really want to talk about work right now. And he was super offended.
[00:58:57] Thomas: And now there’s the. He, [00:59:00] he, like, we became like really good together. We had a, a, a, a good talk about it, [00:59:05] but now, what he does is every time where he introduces new people, he’s like, Oh, this is Ruth Thomas. [00:59:10] He will tell you exactly what he wants. Like for [00:59:15] me, that’s fine. But you know, for other people there, they see that as [00:59:20] something that’s not fine.
[00:59:20] Thomas: So you got to keep in mind if you work with different cultures, like teach other people what [00:59:25] feedback means in their culture, but also what it means for you, right? Like I’m fine if people just straight up tell me. [00:59:30] Hey, this went wrong. We need to do better or Hey, I’ve seen you doing this. [00:59:35] What do you think?
[00:59:36] Thomas: But other people’s like if it’s non confrontational or less [00:59:40] confrontational It might need to go into a hamburger style, right? Like be, [00:59:45] Hey, Alex, like, you know, your hair is really great today. Your mic, not so much, but you know, your [00:59:50] beard looks amazing. It’s that kind of level where [00:59:55] those loops sometimes are really hard to implement, definitely over different cultures.[01:00:00]
[01:00:00] Alex: Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, as someone who is, you know, I think [01:00:05] high in emotions relative maybe to the standard, right. I was very sensitive for a [01:00:10] very long time because. I think by definition being Iranian, you know, as you guys [01:00:15] know, Middle Eastern culture is a lot more, up and down relative to maybe the [01:00:20] Netherlands or German where there’s a lot more stability, I’d say.
[01:00:22] Alex: Right. But, for me, one [01:00:25] really good trick, and I learned this very late in my life. It was only at age 42 that I [01:00:30] realized it’s such a great way to see it. And it was thanks to Nick and Tom, the co founders of Coin Bureau. [01:00:35] We were here in Dubai. And So, you know, the concept of, never get [01:00:40] married to your idea.
[01:00:43] Alex: So that is so useful, [01:00:45] but they give me something a lot more useful than never go in a meeting, fully married to [01:00:50] your idea. Which is when you have an [01:00:55] idea, what they say is we, they always go in thinking that, okay, my [01:01:00] idea is only half cooked. It’s only at the 50 percent of its potential. [01:01:05] So they say that, and in order for it to have 90% chance [01:01:10] of success, I need to find the best people to give it to me raw.
[01:01:14] Alex: And they [01:01:15] will, from that 50%, maybe Thomas, you’re gonna add 15% and you, Charles, you’re gonna add [01:01:20] 15%. And by the time I finish all these very useful qualitative [01:01:25] sessions, then all of a sudden maybe my probabilities of succeeding with this idea is [01:01:30] 80% rather than 50% from the original concept. I don’t know if that, that helps, but, I [01:01:35] got that from the coin bureau guys, and I thought this was such a smart way of seeing it.
[01:01:38] Thomas: I love [01:01:40] it. We do the same with our founders, like that we built with just like. We’re gonna shoot some holes in your white paper. [01:01:45] You’re ready for that? Yeah, we’re ready for that’s like no you’re not but it’s [01:01:50] okay We’ll also help you plug those hole and do something [01:01:55] better
[01:01:57] Charlie: So on on the last on the ten [01:02:00] questions, we’ve got two more we’re gonna try and rapid fire them Across so sustainability [01:02:05] practices in your experience, what practices contribute most to sustainable [01:02:10] growth through partnerships,
[01:02:12] Alex: learning every single day, [01:02:15] constantly, never staying complacent, never be [01:02:20] complacent, because people evolve, we evolve, understanding oneself, understanding the other [01:02:25] people.
[01:02:26] Alex: Never stay complacent, never be happy with where you are today [01:02:30] and constantly refine your skill set, I think is the, the ultimate way. [01:02:35] And that, that is, that connects to everything, what we talked about so far, right. With feedback loops, with [01:02:40] prioritizing, like with love languages, but never be complacent would be [01:02:45] my, my ultimate answer.
[01:02:47] Alex: Yeah.
[01:02:48] Charlie: Nice. And 10 [01:02:50] learning from failures. Can you share an example of a partnership that didn’t go well? Oh, [01:02:55] and what lessons could be learned as a result?
[01:02:56] Alex: Oh, yes. I have a massive, massive [01:03:00] failure in mind. I cannot mention the, the [01:03:05] company because they’re very big, but, but I think this was [01:03:10] a specific instance where I was prioritizing business too [01:03:15] much rather than values and brand.
[01:03:18] Alex: And that went south. [01:03:20] So, as much as, you know, I try to prioritize everything based on business, there are [01:03:25] some times where if the fit doesn’t feel right, and I, and my gut feeling was [01:03:30] never completely feeling it right, which I think, by the way, the gut feeling, a lot of people [01:03:35] think it’s emotions, but it’s basically your brain that’s registered so much data and on the [01:03:40] subconscious level.
[01:03:41] Alex: But, I think that, I went too much on the business side. Without [01:03:45] listening to my gut, but also, without focusing on other components, which is, [01:03:50] is this the right type of partnership? Do we share the same values? Does this look good for our brand? And that [01:03:55] was a massive failure, like massive. I think we, we probably lost, around [01:04:00] 150k, and made very little money from that.
[01:04:03] Charlie: All right. So, [01:04:05] onto the brainstorming session strategies for setting your product and ensuring sustainable growth is [01:04:10] the topic that we’ve chosen. I think. Web3 is one of those [01:04:15] unique industries where selling your product is not as direct as, Hey, would you like my stuff? [01:04:20] It’s, you know, there’s a lot more relationship to it.
[01:04:22] Charlie: There’s a lot more [01:04:25] like. I guess trust and word of mouth recommendation. Like I [01:04:30] trust you, we work together. I, and then I’m going to ask one of your friends, like, have you, do you know this [01:04:35] brand? Have you worked with them before? What’s your take on that? Do you feel, do you feel web [01:04:40] three is as different from say web two or
[01:04:43] Alex: 100 million percent [01:04:45] Charles, because, you know, like I think web three, generally speaking is a bit [01:04:50] of a rebellious industry.
[01:04:51] Alex: Right. And they really dislike corporate ways. You [01:04:55] know, the less corporate you are, probably the best it is. Unless you work for maybe, let’s say [01:05:00] Circle or Coinbase where, you know, some of their, maybe some of those companies are a lot more corporate and [01:05:05] more in between banks and Web3, right. They’re not, either on the [01:05:10] Web3, Dgen side or, you know, The full on trad feist inside, but I agree with you a hundred percent, [01:05:15] Charles.
[01:05:15] Alex: I think what I’ve said to many, many projects who are trying to learn how to [01:05:20] pitch is don’t fucking pitch.[01:05:25]
[01:05:26] Alex: Because there are three ways to sell, you know, either products, [01:05:30] raise funds. You know, sell a dream. And that is the number [01:05:35] one and the most common from the best sales practitioners is questioning. Right. Rather than [01:05:40] selling it’s questioning. So the very crafty ones, and I can show you guys a few of the [01:05:45] systems that I’ve seen being executed, By many, many top salesmen and that have [01:05:50] been referenced in many books.
[01:05:51] Alex: So there’s questioning formatting is, is number one. Then [01:05:55] the second part is storytelling. Storytelling is extremely powerful in web three, [01:06:00] because it’s such an elegant and soft way of selling something and getting people [01:06:05] just curious or interested in what you’re doing. And the third way is pitching.
[01:06:08] Alex: And the [01:06:10] only format where people should pitch is to. When, when you’re in a [01:06:15] group format and you cannot customize the dialogue, you’re not having a dialogue, you’re having a [01:06:20] monologue in front of a certain amount of people. Those are the only instances where you should [01:06:25] pitch or else you should never pitch because it never works.
[01:06:28] Alex: And sorry for such a. [01:06:30] Dirty analogy, but it’s like going up to a girl and saying, Hey, do you want to have sex? It’s that direct, [01:06:35] right? It’s people who don’t like it. It’s like, dude, I don’t even know you. Why are you trying to sell me something or trying to [01:06:40] get something from me so quickly? So yeah, I like those three formats.
[01:06:44] Alex: Good questioning, [01:06:45] storytelling. And then also there’s one key component guys is to have [01:06:50] multiple. sales pitches depending on the people. So [01:06:55] like a trad fi guy relative to a web 3d gen is a very different way of choosing your [01:07:00] words. And then maybe a newbie who doesn’t know anything versus someone who’s [01:07:05] extremely, extremely knowledgeable is also completely different.
[01:07:08] Alex: So not having a [01:07:10] one way, fits all, but having multiple Approaches [01:07:15] is, is a key point here on top of the three basic pillars of selling.
[01:07:19] Thomas: As a [01:07:20] choosing your audience piece, that is always, I always find it interesting going to [01:07:25] conferences. And I think I had a discussion with Charlie last week about this because we were at NFC Lisbon, [01:07:30] really lovely conference.
[01:07:31] Thomas: And I, I liked it. I generally like [01:07:35] conferences. The thing I dislike about is every try, everybody tries to sell really heavily and, you know, we’re, [01:07:40] we’re sitting on a tech side of things. So. It’s always like, Oh, what do you do? Oh, you need tech [01:07:45] services? Like that, that’s generally the conversation I have with, with agencies.
[01:07:48] Thomas: I’m like, no. [01:07:50] Well, first off you didn’t ask what I do, but no, I don’t need tech services. It’s [01:07:55] like choosing your audience and, and to your point, like. You know, questioning, [01:08:00] I think that’s where it starts, right? Like, and sometimes it means like, we, [01:08:05] we often do indirect sales, right? When you talk to people, definitely in, in web three conferences, and it doesn’t [01:08:10] matter if it’s a builder conference or, or like, you know, a token, which is I think more, more business related, [01:08:15] sometimes referring people to the right, or making introductions to the right [01:08:20] people, and then often they come back later and they’re like, Oh, Hey, you were doing tech services, [01:08:25] right?
[01:08:25] Thomas: It’s like, yeah, yeah. We spoke about it three months ago. Yeah. I’ve really remembered you because you. Put me in [01:08:30] touch with that guy and I got my, this, this piece sorted because at that moment in time, they needed [01:08:35] legal and they didn’t need nothing else. Right? So you’re starting pitching to somebody that doesn’t [01:08:40] need tech or marketing, it, it, it gets off a bad impression.
[01:08:44] Thomas: Well, if you do it the other way [01:08:45] around, where you said, Hey, look, you know, we know the right people. I can make an intro [01:08:50] for you. The intro goes, well, there’s a good chance of coming back. Like, Hey, thanks for that intro. And by the way, [01:08:55] We do need that crazy smart contract for a crazy project that you know, we’re going to change the space [01:09:00] with okay Cool, let’s talk but that’s it’s a you don’t start with questioning yet It [01:09:05] just you get it gets shoved through your throat and you’re like, uh Yeah.
[01:09:08] Thomas: But I don’t really care about [01:09:10] what you do or like, you know, because you don’t understand what the audience is.
[01:09:14] Alex: And I think, [01:09:15] and I think you, you mentioned something really important, Thomas was, is if you really want to pitch, at [01:09:20] least ask what they do first, right? Because that’s an elegant way, because once you’ve given them [01:09:25] the chance to speak, then they’ll be, they’ll feel obliged to reciprocate.[01:09:30]
[01:09:30] Alex: Sorry. I can’t even pronounce that properly, but they’ll feel, they’ll feel obliged to do so. Right. [01:09:35] That’s at least it’s a little more elegant, right. In the way of doing it, because you, you’d let them go first.
[01:09:39] Charlie: I [01:09:40] was just going to say, I liked your comment, Alex, like, you know, some, some businesses are more [01:09:45] corporate.
[01:09:45] Charlie: It’s, it’s part of what we do, aspect is that we are corporate. Our, our, [01:09:50] our goal is to be that like. Essentially tech people defense [01:09:55] against like big corporates trying to trying to rug pull them on contracts and [01:10:00] Or or looking at their economies like that’s that’s why i’m wandering around these conferences in a [01:10:05] shirt, right?
[01:10:06] Charlie: And and it is it is that kind of You know, you [01:10:10] get with the side, I was like, why are you at this private event where everyone’s in a t shirt and you’re wearing a shirt and like a, [01:10:15] you know,[01:10:20]
[01:10:21] Charlie: And then they kind of wander over and they’re like, Oh, so you’ve been in this [01:10:25] space since 2016, 17, and you have launched some ICOs and you have launched a unicorn [01:10:30] business. And you’ve done all of this. And four of my friends are also in the [01:10:35] room, you know, invited you here. Oh, you are one of us, but you just performed that function.
[01:10:39] Charlie: I’m [01:10:40] like, yeah, the reason why we wear the shirts is so you don’t fucking have to. [01:10:45] By the way, Charles, when I look at you now,
[01:10:47] Alex: you do look more like someone who would be with Kraken and [01:10:50] Coinbase rather than an Ave or, you know, one inch or something. [01:10:55]
[01:10:55] Thomas: You’re still fine with one inch, by the way.
[01:10:58] Charlie: We essentially provide, I mean, [01:11:00] regardless of how, how DJ you want to be, once you get into that [01:11:05] Series A room discussion.
[01:11:07] Charlie: The, the quality of the deal that you’re going to get out depends [01:11:10] on the quality of the people on your side of the table. And you can feel that and, [01:11:15] and in essence, that’s a, we like, we prime businesses to get there [01:11:20] and then ensure that that steering of the ship, as you put it, that vision, that, that [01:11:25] monetarily, that monetary basis, that P& L, that balance sheet knowledge is there for these [01:11:30] businesses.
[01:11:30] Charlie: Yeah. And so. We almost couldn’t do that without wearing the shirt, you know,
[01:11:34] Alex: [01:11:35] 100%. And I think, you know, like what we talked about earlier about having like multiple pitches, know [01:11:40] your audience, like Thomas, you mentioned as well. Like, so for example, for me, right. If I [01:11:45] meet someone who is a complete beginner in crypto and asked me, what do you guys do at Swiss [01:11:50] work?
[01:11:50] Alex: I will just say, listen, we’ve created an app, which is like the sky [01:11:55] scanner. Of buying your crypto or earning interest in an easy way and at best [01:12:00] prices, right? So I’ll use the sky scanner analogy where we get you best price for buying, [01:12:05] selling, and earning interest on crypto. If I talk to a techie guy, I [01:12:10] will say we’re a meta exchange layer connecting to five centralized order books [01:12:15] and four Solana DEXs to get you best liquidity, minimum slippage and spread [01:12:20] and best rates.
[01:12:21] Alex: So that’s a different pitch. And then if I talk to someone from [01:12:25] TradFi, I’ll say, Hey, Charles, what we’re building right now is essentially NASDAQ 2. 0, [01:12:30] where we’re the central point where all liquidity will go, that will connect the FX [01:12:35] world. The sex centralized exchange world and the DEX is decentralized exchange.
[01:12:39] Alex: So you see [01:12:40] already just for Swissborg, I already, at least, and I have millions of other examples [01:12:45] of how I refine what Swissborg is depending on the audience that we know. And as you said, [01:12:50] Thomas, even if there’s no business now, as long as they understand and know what you do, something may [01:12:55] come up later.
[01:12:55] Thomas: I, I have one example. There’s a, it may be left. So, [01:13:00] pretty hard last week we onboarded our COO. She is non crypto, [01:13:05] and she went to the first conference and she’s like, yeah, how should I present Intersect? I’m like, you know, [01:13:10] in, in, in the way that you feel most comfortable with. And she came up with, and to non tech [01:13:15] people, she’s like, yeah, we’re, we’re a Tinder for the IT industry.
[01:13:19] Thomas: And, and [01:13:20] funnily enough, for a lot of people there, they were like, oh, okay. So you connect like, you know, your clients [01:13:25] with, I was like, wow, that you explained it. But she explained it better to non crypto people than [01:13:30] I ever did. And I was like, wow, that’s. That’s, that’s really impressive, but it’s, it’s, you [01:13:35] say that to a tech guy, he’s like, okay, that’s weird.
[01:13:37] Thomas: Right. But you say that to, to a marketing guy that hasn’t, [01:13:40] hasn’t any idea what, what a blockchain consultancy means. And you know, a trust layer between [01:13:45] clients, you need to be very concise. And I found [01:13:50] that a very good, opening an opener, to, to non tech [01:13:55] people, And actually I’m using it now with my friends as well.
[01:13:58] Thomas: They’re like, Thomas, what are you doing? I was like, [01:14:00] we’re, we’re Tinder for IT. Oh, that’s great. Yeah. And it’s specifically blockchain. Oh yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. [01:14:05] A hundred
[01:14:06] Alex: percent. And that’s so cool. I mean, Tinder for IT. I mean, [01:14:10] that’s, that, I think anyone would understand that. Right. Yeah. Really cool example.[01:14:15]
[01:14:15] Thomas: We, we offer a very, transactional. Oh no, that’s not true. [01:14:20] We actually offer very deep. That’s the difference. We’re probably more like a Bumble. Or like, [01:14:25] we offer like, you know, in depth partnerships and, you know, partnership for [01:14:30] life.
[01:14:31] Charlie: She’s got to swipe right first.[01:14:35]
[01:14:36] Thomas: In a sense, yes. I wanted to touch on one more thing and I know we [01:14:40] don’t have that much time, but I wanted to just, just ask you one question because this is something that [01:14:45] I’ve seen our clients struggle with and generally the industry, struggle with when it comes to [01:14:50] building customer loyalty. And it’s easy, I think, if you’re doing something for [01:14:55] crypto by crypto, but how, how do you create that on a larger scale?
[01:14:59] Thomas: Let’s say, you know, [01:15:00] your web, web two users, like it’s something that is seemingly really hard [01:15:05] to crack or projects in this particular space.
[01:15:08] Alex: 100%. [01:15:10] So I think the biggest mistake that most startups make in Web3 is [01:15:15] that they don’t have a story. They’re trying to create a company kind of like Apple, [01:15:20] but they don’t realize that Apple really, really crafted a powerful brand.[01:15:25]
[01:15:25] Alex: You know, on how people want it to be different from windows because windows is garbage, [01:15:30] you know? So, so it really, it’s, it’s a lot of hard work on the [01:15:35] storytelling, on the narrative, on the brand. And, you know, I think it’s [01:15:40] more than that, actually, if you really want people to stick with you. You have multiple [01:15:45] pillars that you need to sell.
[01:15:46] Alex: Number one, you need to have some sort of public figure, [01:15:50] right? So the people within the company, there’s that story, right? So for example, Charles Hoskinson, [01:15:55] he’s a A plus for Cardano, right? He like, he is a real guru [01:16:00] or Steve Jobs was a real guru, right? So already, if you can have, you can take [01:16:05] the people pillar and it doesn’t need to be the entire team.
[01:16:07] Alex: It could be one, two, three polarizing [01:16:10] figures, right? Like Elon. And then the second one is the story of the mission, [01:16:15] right? Where the company’s headed and the division and the mission, the company is another [01:16:20] story that you need to sell. It’s a second narrative. And then the, [01:16:25] the third story is the technology or the token.
[01:16:27] Alex: If you have a token, right? But the [01:16:30] technology and the token, once again, what’s the story, the compelling story that you have. And I think if you, if [01:16:35] you can have stories for all of these pillars, then you will create [01:16:40] extreme loyalty. Why do people love Tesla? You know, because [01:16:45] Elon is fucking awesome.
[01:16:46] Alex: Because his cars are very cool. [01:16:50] So why, I mean, and the vision he has. Oh my God, the vision. He wants to build, you know, [01:16:55] spacecrafts. He wants to send us to the moon, right? So all of the pillars, there’s a story for every single pillar. [01:17:00] I mean, he created a car that farts, right? Have you guys seen the Tesla that [01:17:05] farts?
[01:17:06] Alex: Jesus Christ. My, my brother was, he showed me that feature the other day, [01:17:10] guys. We were in Lausanne, which by the way, you know, Swiss people in Lausanne, they’re quite, [01:17:15] they’re quite calm and quiet and introverted. And there was a teenage couple crossing the [01:17:20] street, holding each other’s hands. And he said, Alex, do you want to laugh?
[01:17:23] Alex: And he looked at me with those big [01:17:25] perverted eyes. And I’m like, what are you going to do? And this cute little couple, which probably had their [01:17:30] first kiss last week, he, he pushes one button and there’s a massive [01:17:35] fart sound that comes from the front of his Tesla car. And the guy just looked up and looked [01:17:40] at the girl wondering if it was him or her who farted and they, they turned around and my brother [01:17:45] is like waving and they just cracked up.
[01:17:47] Alex: They were crying and crying of laughter, [01:17:50] but I mean, that’s crazy. These are, once again, it’s, you know, How can you imagine [01:17:55] a guy in a board meeting saying, okay, guys, I have a revolutionary feature. What is it? We’re going to have a car [01:18:00] that farts like, like, do you know what I mean? That’s a story in itself, right?[01:18:05]
[01:18:06] Thomas: But it also needs to fit because if a Volkswagen would do that or a BMW. [01:18:10] It would look bad, right? Because that’s not, that’s not the audience. Like, but if you do it, [01:18:15] if a Tesla owner does it, they’re like, Oh, hell yeah, this is fucking cool. Like it’s [01:18:20] also know your audience in a sense, I guess a little bit when it comes to customer loyalty.
[01:18:23] Thomas: Yeah.
[01:18:24] Charlie: But it’s like [01:18:25] a union ad article.
[01:18:26] Thomas: Yeah.
[01:18:27] Charlie: BMW [01:18:30] fights.
[01:18:31] Alex: So, but I think that that’s the conclusion, right? For all the techies and devs [01:18:35] going out there. Don’t just build a product, really build a brand. That’s the most important part. You need a story. [01:18:40] If you don’t have a story, what’s going to happen is just like we see with all of these airdrops that [01:18:45] have, you know, over a million, sometimes DAUs, daily active users.
[01:18:49] Alex: And as soon as the [01:18:50] airdrop is gone, They have less than a hundred K, 90 percent of their users [01:18:55] disappear overnight. And, that’s the difference with Swissborg. We have a story. We love the [01:19:00] community. We’re constantly organizing events. We give our time and availability to [01:19:05] them. And that’s that, that works, right?
[01:19:06] Alex: Our stickiness, by the way, is, is one of the, we have one of the most [01:19:10] sticky apps in the world. We look at the stats out of 800, 000 KYC users. [01:19:15] We have 300, 000 monthly active users. So that’s like 30 to 40 percent [01:19:20] monthly active users, which there’s no company in crypto like Coinbase. When you look at the [01:19:25] recent, financial statements, 10%, crypto.
[01:19:28] Alex: com is even lower. It’s [01:19:30] maybe around the 5%, even 3%. So the stickiness comes from a story, I guess, you know, [01:19:35] and, and really spending time with the community rather than the corporate side. [01:19:40] So that’s just my personal take.
[01:19:42] Charlie: Interesting. So we’re about to run out of [01:19:45] time. So we’re going to shimmy on down to the desert island.
[01:19:49] Charlie: If Alex, [01:19:50] if you were to start again, you had no bags, no clout, no black book, no friends in the industry [01:19:55] and no rich uncle. What would, what would be the five things you would bring with you if you’re going [01:20:00] to start your business journey again?
[01:20:02] Alex: I would bring, the top books [01:20:05] possible. So I would probably bring, bring all the books that can help me give as much wisdom as [01:20:10] possible from, you know, invisible mentors.
[01:20:13] Alex: And then other than that, you [01:20:15] know, really invest in oneself, invest in understanding yourself, your strong points, your [01:20:20] weaknesses, and then finding someone who can complete the other part of the puzzle.
[01:20:24] Thomas: Can you [01:20:25] give us two books that, that you would
[01:20:26] Alex: take? Can I give three? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of [01:20:30] course. So And I, I, I do recommend this particularly in [01:20:35] this order, not just one after the other.
[01:20:37] Alex: I, I consider this as the best way to [01:20:40] be read as a sequence. And I would start with a book thinking, grow rich with Napoleon [01:20:45] written by Napoleon Hill in the 1920s. And the reason why I liked this book, by the way, the [01:20:50] title is very misleading. It’s not about becoming rich. He, the rich here is more in terms of the [01:20:55] mindset, the wealth and the richness of your mind.
[01:20:58] Alex: And, that book really [01:21:00] focused on taking over. Your consciousness, your subconsciousness [01:21:05] and the subconscious part of your brain is the most powerful part of the brain. A lot of people like to think [01:21:10] that they made decisions logically, irrationally. It’s not true. We, we actually try [01:21:15] to validate those decisions with logic from the neocortex.
[01:21:18] Alex: So thinking real [01:21:20] rich. Number one, just for you to master your mind and, and create the law of attraction and the right [01:21:25] wavelengths. So you connect with the right people and. Really weird shit happens. That’s maybe for a [01:21:30] future podcast. I can share some freaky stories with you guys. And then the second part, I would [01:21:35] go for, how to win friends and influence people.
[01:21:38] Alex: Actually before how to win [01:21:40] friends and influence people. I would go for the seven habits of highly effective people [01:21:45] with Steve, Stephen Covey. Why? Because once you control the mind, what are the principles and [01:21:50] values that you can learn for yourself to go from being dependent [01:21:55] to independent. To interdependent as an effective leader, [01:22:00] right?
[01:22:00] Alex: So brain yourself and your skillset, and then third, how to win friends and [01:22:05] influence people so that you can use that with other people. So more on the social psychology side [01:22:10] and relationship side. So that’s why I like that order. You format your brain, then you add, [01:22:15] CPU, to yourself, and then you can connect to the internet and [01:22:20] other potential devices.
[01:22:23] Thomas: That’s a perfect analogy.[01:22:25]
[01:22:27] Charlie: Fantastic. Alex, I can only thank you for [01:22:30] spending your time with us here on what three podcasts. It’s been a absolute pleasure. [01:22:35] Is there, can you tell our audience where they can find you and how they can connect with you at [01:22:40] SwissBorg?
[01:22:40] Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So please feel free to check the SwissBorg. com website.
[01:22:44] Alex: If you’re interested in the [01:22:45] crypto space, we, we’re trying to build wealth management, so to automate [01:22:50] everything so that is as easy and as passive as possible for people to be a part of this [01:22:55] amazing journey. And then myself, you know, you can find me on Twitter. Alex underscore [01:23:00] fazel, F A Z E L.
[01:23:01] Charlie: Fantastic.
[01:23:02] Thomas: Awesome. I, I really, I’m really glad that [01:23:05] you found some time in your busy schedule to speak with us today. I really enjoyed [01:23:10] it. I think that, Charlie and you did too. [01:23:15] So again, thank you very much for being here. [01:23:20] If you got this far into the episode, which I’m pretty sure a lot of people will.
[01:23:23] Thomas: Thank you for listening [01:23:25] or watching, please like and subscribe. We love if you share our, our, our [01:23:30] posts and our shorts and our mediums. Because we believe that the content that we bring out is very [01:23:35] valuable for new tech founders and Syrians, new to the Web3 space. Thank you very much. [01:23:40] See you next [01:23:45] week.
